Italian 20x138B

[EOD]

Hi Fert, yes, it is the Rheinmetall licence contract to Italy. The details will be given in the mentioned book.

 

[jiipee76]

Sorry, no! What they are called around the world does not make it correct in any way.
Solothurn was founded in the second half of 1929. As we all know the first model of the 20x138B weapon was the MG C/30 and Flak 30. The development of the Rheinmetall weapons goes back to at least 1928 (and maybe even earlier).
Solothurn only developed the AT rifles, nothing else.
Also we shall not forget that Solothurn was marketing Rheinmetall made weapons (for the reason you gave above). Namely the well known and undisputed 37mm Pak and the 81mm mortar made by Rheinmetall are advertised as Solothurn weapons. Nobody so far ever claimed these to be Soloturn developments or products.
The Solothurn designation originates merely from post war publications written by people who lacked this information.

There are many examples for such errors in ammunition history where information was hard to find or people just liked to use the name of a well known weapon instead a correct designation.

For this reason I never get tired to tell correct designations since in particular we as people with at least some little knowledge have to stick with correct designations. Bending backwards and using incorrect names to please ignorant people who want to keep their old and wrong knowledge can't be our aim.

Last but not least, the Italian M35 Breda is also a Rheinmetall development which got licenced to Italy.

A good friend of mine is currently writing a book on these weapons and the cartridge. I hope it will be out in the next few years. Plenty of facts and info then to be recognized.

Interesting,lets see the final book.That book makes for example 1940s army manuals here in Finland trash material.IF it is fact book.And it was Finland who used actually very first models of 2cm Flak 30,serial numbers for the guns delivered to Finland were under 150 on all known examples which survived the war and are in museums/collections now.

Base design for 20x138B was Erhardt Flz.K(20x70RB) airplane cannon round which was reworked/up calibered.

That newly designed caliber was designed to be used in Dreyse MG design which was also reworked/up calibered by designers Fritz Herlach and Theodor Rakula(who worked to firm Rheinmetall,but at the time in Switzerland).FIRST working guntype for this caliber was Solothurn S5-100.Rheinmetall sold this guntype before WW2 under name 2cm Machinenkanone ST 5 and two different variants 2cm MK ST 51 and 2cm MK ST 52(you can understand what ST means on the name).Guns here in Finland are all Rheinmetall 2cm MK ST 51 models,which together with 2cm BSW Lafette are known as 2cm Fliegerabwehrkanone 30(and also was original german designation name for 2cm Flak 30 -> 2cm MK ST 51 GUN+2cm BSW Lafette=2cm Flak 30.

It is CLEARLY MARKED INTO 2cm Flak 30 barrels 2cm MK ST 51.I can post you pictures if you dont belive,it is SOLOTHURN who owned the gun design,Rheinmetal owned everything else.

Even Americans tested that guntype but did not take it to their use.First operational user in 1930 was Kriegsmarine under designation 2cm MG C/30L.German navy used 2cm MK ST 51+Sockellafette 30L which together was known as 2cm MG C/30L.That is where you are right: ...First model of the 20x138B weapon was the MG C/30.

You are mixing gundesign with gunnames/models.And second: You are very wrong that Solothurn only designed Antitank guns.Solothurn designed guntypes which had universal usage: Antiair,Antitank,Vehicle guns.Even german 2cm Kwk tankgun is based to Solothurn design.

And as we all know,later updated version 2cm Flak 38 was designed by firm Waffenwerke Mauser AG,not Rheinmetall.It increased firing speed from 250-300rounds/min to 450-480rounds/min and was lighter.

btw,here is my friends M35 Breda.It is nice gun,but i personally dont see german design in it.Its firing rate was slower 200rounds/min and interior design is totally different.Flak 30 uses rotating breech block while Breda have sliding breech-block.

 

[EOD]

Of course you are free to believe what you want. (and anybody else too)

I never said that the Flak 38 is a Rheinmetall design.

Side note: In 1930 Russia already bought the weapons and licences for the Flak 30 from Rheinmetall (contracts are also present).

Claiming the "ST" to be Solothrun is incorrect unless you can explain us then what the "2-cm Maschinenkanone T-5" is.
Then you also say that the 37mm AA gun ST-10 (well again IMHO by Rheinmetall) is also Solothurn? Will we rename the 37x265B cartridge to 37mm Solothurn as well?
And what about the Solothurn catalogs showing the 37mm AT gun and the 81mm mortar which are undisputedly Rheinmetall? Are these also Solothurn weapons now? They are not since Solothurn was a remote sales platform for Rheinmetall products (Versailles bla, bla).
The S18 designation series is certainly closer to Solothurn, why did you not mention this?

You also mention the MG C/30L as a navy weapon. Do you know what the "L" stands for? Right, for "Luft" or "Luftwaffe" which was the aircraft gun version of the MG C/30. A rather well know weapon.

The Rheinmetall contract for the Italian 20mm Breda speaks for it self, no matter what one like sto believe or not. Maybe the German 37mm Flak 18 got it charger design from italy then? Kinda unlikely... So much for what can be seen in designs.

Also I never said anything about the 20mm Erhardt (he worked for Rheinmetall). But once you are on it you hereby admit that Rheinmetall was on it in 1918 already.

I also did not argue that Solothurn developed other weapons. I was aming at the 20mm which is the subject of discusison.

I have a Solothurn catalog showing a 20x138B weapon on a pivot mount for AA use. Correct, it is not the Flak 30 but an S18-1000 there.

I do not know what the Finnish manuals do object on in detail but it is what it is, a secondary source. I have seen more than one military manual in the past which had errors, in particular when it was stating on equipment made elsewhere.

As mentioned before Solothurn was founded in Summer of 1929. If your theory would be correct how do you explain then the development of the MG C/30 and Flak 30 within 6 months (still ignoring the 1928 as the beginning date for development)? Also then you can show us proof for the existance of the 20mm S18-100 and S18-1000 dated 1930 or earlier, hardly that will happen.

To try do explain all in detail would take too much time and will take us nowhere.

See the book ones it is out.

 

[jvollenberg]

Question ...

Do the Italian 20-MM have their own nomenclatures? I am trying to find the nomenclature for the round thehairbarebunch showed on page 2.

Joe