US made .303 blank

[peashooter]

"TonyE does list a example of a MkVI with mock bullet that has not been blackened,but is not the norm,in his .303 inch British Service Ammunition book."
Yes but it is un headstamped, all the others are headstamped and no example of a US headstamped case being used?

Yes my example has the same headstamp and the same neck ring and there are no signs of the 3 crimp marks there would be if it was a MkVI that had had its mock bullet removed.

I like topics like this, it is why I collect Ammunition, it may be frustrating but we cant know everything :tinysmile_fatgrin_t

Rich

 

[AE501]

No. It was WWI and was an over simplistic statement for a complex subject.

The first .303" cartridges used were produced for the first short rodded rifle grenades and were left plain and were basically a ball cart with no bullet and no crimp(crimping did not appear until WWII). Two plain models were produced, with differing fillings.

Then long rodded grenade were introduced so it became necessary to have a cart with more propellant to go further. These carts were blackened all over to differentiate them from the earlier carts. There were two models.
This gave variance. You could use the cart appropriate to the distance from your trench to the enemy trenches in your part of the line, for the grenade you were using.

Then the waters became muddied because a discharger cup was introduced for the No 23 grenade which required an entirely different cart requiring identification, so the forward end was blackened for nearly half the case length. The pressure requirements were vastly different. On the one hand too much pressure from the discharger cup cart would potentially blow up the rifle and on the other, insufficient pressure could result in a grenade exploding in your own trench.

All the WWI carts were .303" Mk VII cases, as the ball cases.

During WWII another cartridge was introduced for India which had two black rings.
Carts now had the 'H' on the base to denote grenade discharging carts.

The Mk 4 & 5 carts now had both ends blackened one third of case each end, for use with tube discharged grenades and crimped.

Then the Energa ATk grenade was introduced, calling for another cart, which reverted to the blackened base, but was distinguishable from the earlier blackened based models because it was crimped.

From the end of WWII Australia was doing its own thing because they were using US rifle grenades and in hot climates.

 

[smle2009]

Thankyou for the very interesting info........but none of the blanks discussed in this thread originally are grenade/discharging blanks,but just training/exercise blanks (MkV & MkVI with or without mock bullet)

Tony

 

[peashooter]

:tinysmile_fatgrin_t:tinysmile_shy_t:

 

[smle2009]

"TonyE does list a example of a MkVI with mock bullet that has not been blackened,but is not the norm,in his .303 inch British Service Ammunition book."
Yes but it is un headstamped, all the others are headstamped and no example of a US headstamped case being used?

Yes my example has the same headstamp and the same neck ring and there are no signs of the 3 crimp marks there would be if it was a MkVI that had had its mock bullet removed.

I like topics like this, it is why I collect Ammunition, it may be frustrating but we cant know everything :tinysmile_fatgrin_t

Rich

I've just looked at my MkVI without mock bullet and this does not have stab crimp marks from the mock bullet being removed either,I think you will find that after the mock bullets were ordered to be removed from existing stocks new MkVI blanks were manufactured for a period of time but still with the groove in the neck.
The US examples on here are not Mk VI blanks,as you pointed out they were obsolete by 1909......I wonder if the UK 'sold on' some US ammo to the Canadians and they converted them to blanks?....would explain the neck groove?

Tony

 

[Jimiles]

It seems from the earlier thread that even TonyE didn't know why there was a groove on some Commonwealth & UK post-1906 manufactured blanks so I don't think we'll ever now know. Its just a guess but I'm wondering if perhaps the obsolete machinery used here in the UK to manufacture the Mark VI blank was subsequently sold on to Canada...?

Jim

 

[gravelbelly]

The headstamp US 15 VII is common on US supplied .303" Ball rounds, the primers are not crimped. The blank that started this thread looks like a blank made by converting a ball round. It was never a mark VI blank, either with or without the mock bullet and the manufacture date of the case is far too late for that. The mark VI's with the mock bullet removed have a smaller diameter neck to accommodate the thickness of the brass mock bullet, this difference is obvious to the eye. The blackening on the mark VI case is very thin and rubs off with too much handling so some are found looking merely dirty.

It appears that the neck cannelure and star crimp were added at the same time when converting to blank so it must have been a factory job. Incidentally, the Canadian .303" blanks with the cannelure to trap the wad in the neck do not leak powder. Blank which lack this extra securing of the wad do leak powder when shaken.

I find it interesting that the bullets from the US 15 VII ball rounds have two knurled cannelures, one wide one deep inside the caseneck filled with wax and a narrower one at the casemouth for crimping into. The exposed lead at the base is stamped "U". The bullets are the standard length for true Mark VII, not the short ones supplied by the US during WW2.

gravelbelly

 

[smle2009]

Hi gravelbelly, interesting point about the US 15 bullets being the correct length for MkVII....do you know if they have the 'tip filler' as the MkVII should have?(the reason why WW2 US MkVII bullets were shorter because no tip filler was used but the bullet weight was kept the same)....or are the US 15 bullets over the specified weight for the MkVII bullet?

Atb
Tony

 

[gravelbelly]

Hi gravelbelly, interesting point about the US 15 bullets being the correct length for MkVII....do you know if they have the 'tip filler' as the MkVII should have?(the reason why WW2 US MkVII bullets were shorter because no tip filler was used but the bullet weight was kept the same)....or are the US 15 bullets over the specified weight for the MkVII bullet?

Atb
Tony

After I posted above I had nagging doubts about the accuracy of my information. I had written my post from (my faulty) memory, not from books, notes or looking at items in my hand. This morning I did look at some hardware and found that the bullets I described were from rounds headstamped U 15 VII NOT US 15 VII, a big difference. I did find some US 15 VII rounds to look at.

One of the US 15 VII rounds has a cracked neck and I was able to ease the bullet gently out. This bullet is CN jacketed, lead cored, with the exposed lead stamped US. It does have the two cannelures, the one at the mouth crimp is about 1mm wide and knurled. The lower one is about 2mm wide and smooth, not knurled. The overall length of the bullet is 32.4mm and the weight is 174 grains. So, it looks like this one does have some sort of tip lightener above the lead core. But there is no cannelure round the neck to the one shown on the converted blank must have been added after removing the bullet.

I will try to edit my earlier post.

gravelbelly

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