Understanding abbreviations for Schneider artillery

[Hoeksel]

Browsing to some materials I started wondering what the abbreviations mean Schneider used for their guns. In this case a document from 1914. Some letters are pretty obvious, but some are not. Can you help my complete the list? Some may seem to make no sense, I am simply filling in for the gun types I know in French (Debarquement (landing), Campagne (field), Montagne (mountain), Position, Obusier (howitzer), Siege, Long, Court (short), Cotes (coast), Bord (naval vessel), Forteresse (fort), Tourelles (turret), Coupole.

75 mm mountain gun: M.D.2.T.3. --> Montagne Debarquement Tourelles (fit as mountain gun, landing gun and turret gun)? The numbers represent versions? I seriously doubt the meaning of D and T.
75 mm mountain gun: M.P.D. --> Montagne Position Debarquement (fit as mountain gun, fixed gun, landing gun)? Also here I seriously doubt the meaning of D.
75 mm mountain gun: M.P.C. --> C for Campagne (field) or Court (short)?
105 mm mountain gun: O.M. --> Obusier Montagne (mountain howitzer)
76,2 mm landing gun: M.C. --> Montagne, C for Campagne or Court? No D for debarquement (landing) in the abbreviation......hmmmm
75 mm field gun: P.R. and P.D. and S.L. exist --> no clue, the L maybe for Long? The S for Siege?
150 mm siege gun: S.C. --> Siege de Campagne?
105 mm field gun: O.C. --> Obusier de Campagne

 

[Hoeksel]

Currently reading another Schneider document that will probably clear up parts. For example, P is for Puissance (high power).......I will finish the reading later and update the thread where I can.

 

[sgdbdr]

Hi,

Some manuals like this one available on gallica.bnf.fr list french equipment from WW1. Maybe some useful infos inside.



Cheers,

S.

 

[Hoeksel]

I found more info and the list only got longer and more confusing, but that is OK, I like puzzles ;-). I will check your reference as well and make a proper overview in Word and repost here when done for additions.

 

[Hoeksel]

Attached my first effort to understand the abbreviations. I am open to be corrected and as always eager for additional abbreviations to complete the list.

 

[Hoeksel]

I will post the correct overview later, the abbreviations column fell off .

 

[ludokhan]

Hello, excellent translation attempt.
Unfortunately, the French language (I speak French) has many subtleties. Even a competent online translator cannot solve them.
especially with regard to the French at the beginning of the century (1914-1918 )
Take the example in the photo below.


This is not a gun for AA (aviation.) Vs DCA , Aeronef includes anything that can be airborne. (Balloon captive, Zeplin, etc.)

I will try to correct the small mistakes for you.

 

[Hoeksel]

Thanks Ludokhan!

 

[AKON_]

You can use ...

Liste par ordre alphabètique

Akon

 

[Hoeksel]

SC should be added for Schneider Canet.

@Akon, thanks for the link, unfortunately only a few (known) abbreviations are in that list from what I am looking for.

 

[ludokhan]

Good evening, I have done my research.
And in fact, it turns out that the terms you are looking for are not.
These are simply production codes given by order and country of purchase.
There is no "literraire" meaning in the accronyme.
Simply production codes.


EX :
the PD 7 is the 75 gun prescribed in Greece since 1907, 32 copies of a complementary order from Greece, still under construction, are requisitioned in 1914, completed in 1915 and put into service in the French Army in 1916.

-75 MD2T3: ordered from Turkey in 1911.

-75 MPD: designed in Greece by Colonel Danglis and built by Schneider in 1906, it is the only model to be called "Schneider-Danglis", all other type MPD cannons 2 to 5 are only Schneider creations, despite the stupidities on the net for years!

-75 MPD5: Montenegro, Peru and Serbia. In 1916, Serbia received models under construction for Peru, which agreed to postpone the planned deliveries until a later date, which would only be done after the war. Montenegro received only one MPD5 before the German offensive of 1915.

-75 MPC2: Bolivia in 1907.

-75 MPC4: Serbia in 1910.

-75 PR campaign: this is one of the biggest orders received by Schneider, materials for Bulgaria, financed by French banks, which will not prevent this country to stand alongside the Central Empires during the war!

-75 SL3 campaign: prototype in development in 1914.

 

[AKON_]

I have a different opinion than Mr. ludokhan in the sense that if there is no list available (you are working on it) then there is simply no context for the picture published by Mr. ludokhan in the sense that it is not clear what the abbreviations in the text mean.
They sometimes have more options and which one is the correct one.Abbreviations are of course definitely beneficial!
Because they are not explicitly stated in the text of the Schneider company catalog (for example, in the 1914 edition).
-list of abbreviations (you are working on it)
- list of all products (works) of the Schneider company,
-list of cartridges for these Schneider weapons -list ...
etc.
I understand it is a building block of something called systematic research.

Akon

 

[ludokhan]

yay, I have one...
(150 mm siege gun: S.C. --> Siege de Campagne?)

S=sous (under ) C=Coupole ( dome) ( 150=150 )

this means that the cannon can be placed in a fortification, under cupola.

bonne chance pour la suite

 

[Hoeksel]

@ludokhan: Of course the letters and numbers are production codes, but for me there is clearly more systematics then you state. Not 100 % logical (yet, or never), but I do not belief it is random at all. Unfortunately I have little artillery knowledge (I am a shell case guy) so I do admit there is a lot of guestimating from my side. Especially because for me it is clear the main difference is related to the gun mounting, this is where the differentiation is (that is very clear, unfortunately, again, my artillery knowledge is not good enough to know the details for different mountings and their correct naming).

Your list of facts does not proof or disproof anything for me (yet). Again, does not mean you or me is right. I will keep trying to find a system in this until I absolutely belief there is none.

As for S.C., for me (I missed this one) Siege de Campagne makes absolute sense. I add it to the list. Thanks.

A few observations:
- The complexity with letter designations is only for 70 mm, 75 mm and 76 mm guns. Why not for the rest?
- If it were random, why not start with "A, B, C, ...." or "1,2,3, ...."?
- The third letter may indicate a country (R for Russia (like I observed), T for Turkey (believable), but....for P it could be Portugal, Perse, Perou.....for C it could be Chile, Chine, Cuba......why do I not find the G for Greece? It would be very unpractical to use 1 letter to designate a specific country.

 

[ludokhan]

I gave you all the keys to comprehending terminology.
It's now clear to me. The challenge has been overcome.
As a "gift", I give you one last.


(75 mm mountain gun: M.P.D. --> Montagne Position Debarquement (fit as mountain gun, fixed gun, landing gun)? Also here I seriously doubt the meaning of D.)

75mm M (Montenegro) P (Pérou) D ( Danglis ''for danglis mdle" )
The canon for Greece is not designated by a G. ( original name for the Greece one '''75 mm M06/09 Schneider-Danglis mountain gun' " )
because the gun was specially designed for them. ( by Schneiderr & Danglis )

After that, the gun is renamed to be exported to another country ( P, M , etc.)
The name 'Danglis' disapperaed in these versions, as it had been reserved to the Greek guns in a commercial agreement.



Anti-aircraft guns (75mm Schneider ) on the heights near the village. , Gevgelija
( actual Town in the Republic of Macedonia ) ...Macedonia vs Montenegro vs greece...

 

[Hoeksel]

@ludokhan:

I agree we have to agree that we disagree ;-).

For M.P.D. I have a different explanation in my list, I will remove the original text in my thread start to prevent further confusion.
Edit: I am unable to edit the thread start, so unable to change.

As for your explanation "75mm M (Montenegro) P (Pérou) D ( Danglis ''for danglis mdle" )", I disagree.
- Most artillery starting with "M" are factual mountain guns. Montagne is logical.
- The M and P letters are used with so many guns, according your explanation they would almost all be for Peru (why not Portugal?) and Montenegro (why not Moroccan?) which is factual not the case.
- D for Danglis could make sense, but how do you then explain M.P.C. and M.P.E?
- Again, the difference between these guns is in the mounting. This could be country dependent, but I think if I look systematically it is really about the mounting specifically.

Attached a screenshot that makes it clear for me your explanation is not correct. Which, to be clear, does not mean I am right ;-).

 

[ludokhan]

With all my best wishes for the year 2025.
Dik Beez

'PD' = Puissant, ligne de mire organisée pour la Division des opérations de pointage
'SC' = Schneider -Canet NOT = (150 mm siege gun: S.C. --> Siege de Campagne? ) OR (Is there a typo?)
'CS' = Canon de Siége NOT= (150 mm siege gun: S.C. --> Siege de Campagne?)

For the rest, I begin to understand your dismay.
We agree that the French army has in the 1st world war no 75mm gun mounting, or not?

Another example to convince you...after I give up.

Schneider built three models of mountain guns for Serbia:
-70 mm type M.D 2, studied in 1904.

-75 mm type M.P.D 5, studied in 1908.

-75 mm type M.P.C 4, studied in 1910.

The letters and numbers are Schneider trade marks, ( yes trust me ...) models purchased by foreign customers then bear a particular designation, usually the year of adoption in the Army of the country concerned.
The 70 mm M.D 2 shoots a 5 kg shell at an initial speed of 300 m/s, the battery weight is 513 kg (material Decomposable in 5 elements). Range of equipment: 5,700 m.
Yes, the gun was removable for transport on mules....in 5 pieces.

ouiiiii , MD
hallelujah , nothing to do with the Mountain in the title...CQFD.

 

[AKON_]

Hi Hoexel
.. material 75mm ,,E-L ,, -Extra -Léger .
Source :

Militärwissenschaftliche Mitteilungen -1931.​