The big time Hz05gr fuze question.

[Baltic_demo]

Hey , So , recently ive been surfing around german ww1 chemical rectangle , where Bruhmuller did his deeds)
According to artillery order , there where used 105mm howitzer blue cross shells …
By my experience… of finding hz05 gr fuzes when they used with Long howitzer grenade theyre greatly deformed , and rings usually are torn out by explosion products… when the full charge is applied and fully detonating..
But this fuze not only had all its rings , but also some of the main thread that is usually also being destroyed if the full charge of 2-1.8kg applied,moreover the base wasnt that really bent relatively to the HE shell fuze speciments.
I found it near shell krator , across this chemical rectangle 105 howitzer krators are rarely seen and usually theres 50 meters between them…
Other space is filled with fragmentation of 77mm green cross shells (yeah they differ and you can tell by the deformation and demage to the metal) , so , could it belong to the bluecross , and whats more important , the “M” letter thats near Spandau 1915 is it a month?
Experts and serious diggers , share your opinions please!
No previous history of h.e shell usage was recorded.
Of such type in that artillery sector.

 

[Alpini]

M as a month makes no sense as there are two months with M as first letter. It could be a letter dividing several deliveries but that's unusual for fuzes made in state owned arsenals. The manufacturing documents don't mention such a letter.

 

[Baltic_demo]

M as a month makes no sense as there are two months with M as first letter. It could be a letter dividing several deliveries but that's unusual for fuzes made in state owned arsenals. The manufacturing documents don't mention such a letter.

I also looked trought plenty of documents like
Artillery allemande les projectiles 17/19
Or les fusees
Or the british sources and german ones.
Thats why im asking , its the first time im seeing this letter on this fuze.
Ive seen plenty of them.. on diffrent parts of frontline.

 

[SchweineKarl]

Hi, here's what I found in a book I have.
Maybe it's useful.

Regards,

Carel.

 

[Baltic_demo]

Hi, here's what I found in a book I have.
Maybe it's useful.

Regards,

Carel.

Its classic

 

[SchweineKarl]

Tonight I found out that "M" stands for "Minenkopf".
This may indicate that the fuze was made for an HE shell and in this case was used for a gas shell.
Not sure though.

 

[Baltic_demo]

Tonight I found out that "M" stands for "Minenkopf".
This may indicate that the fuze was made for an HE shell and in this case was used for a gas shell.
Not sure though.

Well by discuising this piece with collegues , and serious historians , Like Bernand Delserd
And other experienced people.
we ve came to conclussion that either main charge didnt achieve full impulse , or simply it was precision shell.
Its unlikely that early construction fuze (alot of brass parts) would likely to get to be used on septemeber 1917 where shooting took place and assumption where made.... the rotation of resourses was crazy..
Most likely , it belonged to this shell.
The booster did detonate fully , i concluded this after comparacin of diffrent hz 05 gr fuzes from 100% h.e shells.
i mean even paper on the time rings left and almost all of the pyrotechnical composion..
Wich means that it was percussion action , and judging by krator , its was momental action" no delay..
I mean it still could be a bluecross shell , but also the marking shell variant was fairly convincing..
I would bet 70/30%
Where 70 is marking shell
And 30% is a bluecross shell

 

[Baltic_demo]

Tonight I found out that "M" stands for "Minenkopf".
This may indicate that the fuze was made for an HE shell and in this case was used for a gas shell.
Not sure though.

Could you give the source

 

[Alpini]

I have never read the term "Minenkopf" in many thousand pages of official German WW1 correspondence about ammunition production and also not in any foreign document. Would be interested in the source too but I doubt it's correct.

Also: a letter behind the year digits never has any important meaning about the fuze itself. Any letter releated to the fuze would be directly behind the fuze designation.

 

[Baltic_demo]

I have never read the term "Minenkopf" in many thousand pages of official German WW1 correspondence about ammunition production and also not in any foreign document. Would be interested in the source too but I doubt it's correct.

Also: a letter behind the year digits never has any important meaning about the fuze itself. Any letter releated to the fuze would be directly behind the fuze designation.

I know.. but its still interesting.

 

[Bever]

To be honest I always thought it was a reference to Spandau Munitionsfabrik.

Pretty sure I’ve seen Sp. M. … marked on fuzes too.

The M first appeared in ‘15 as far as I know.

‘14 ones I’ve seen are just Sp. 14 , though that’s not conclusive or really much of a solid answer.

In attachment an example from ‘16.

 

[Alpini]

The "Munitionsfabrik Spandau" made small arms ammunition only like 7,92 mm, etc.

Fuzes and Primers were made by the "Feuerwerkslaboratorium Spandau"

Did anyone see an other letter than the "M" behind the date? Interesting is, that the M is seen on different HZ05 models.

 

[Baltic_demo]

The "Munitionsfabrik Spandau" made small arms ammunition only like 7,92 mm, etc.

Fuzes and Primers were made by the "Feuerwerkslaboratorium Spandau"

Did anyone see an other letter than the "M" behind the date? Interesting is, that the M is seen on different HZ05 models.

Yes there are.. ive seen gr , gr lb fuzes with an M..

 

[DICKAREN]

The "Munitionsfabrik Spandau" made small arms ammunition only like 7,92 mm, etc.

Fuzes and Primers were made by the "Feuerwerkslaboratorium Spandau"

Did anyone see an other letter than the "M" behind the date? Interesting is, that the M is seen on different HZ05 models.

I have just checked the ones in my collection and have two marked with the M, a '15 dated Sp HZ05 Gr and a '16 dated Sp HZ05 Gr lb. I also have a '10 dated Ub HZ05 and '14 dated Sb HZ05 without the M.
Richard

 

[Bever]

The "Munitionsfabrik Spandau" made small arms ammunition only like 7,92 mm, etc.

Fuzes and Primers were made by the "Feuerwerkslaboratorium Spandau"

Did anyone see an other letter than the "M" behind the date? Interesting is, that the M is seen on different HZ05 models.

That does make more sense indeed.

This drawing notes Sp. 16 M. (Or 15, not sure), for a Dz 92 K 15

Will check the ones I’m able to check & let you know if theres any more.

 

[Alpini]

Good find with the Dopp.Z.92, there are also real examples known with the mysterious M.

 

[DICKAREN]

Good find with the Dopp.Z.92, there are also real examples known with the mysterious M.

I have a Dopp Z 92 n F marked Dr 17 M. Will check for others later.
Richard

 

[Alpini]

I found a Dopp.Z.92 K.15 with Sp.16M in my collection, exactly as in the drawing above. On a short examination no difference is visible. But the different Models / Factories at all are increasing the chance that some day a document is found describing the "M" stamp.

For the Übungsgeschosszünder 96 (Üb. 96) a "M" is mentioned on the top of the cap and it means that the striker has a Magnesia sealing. But I don't think that it has the same meaning on the other fuzes.

 

[DICKAREN]

I did not find any others in the collection apart from the Ub 96 which Alpini has now explained.
One thought I had, did the Dresden works have a satellite factory that could have been named M.........?
Richard

 

[Alpini]

No, Dresden had only one second Factory in Radeberg, stamp "R"