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I will be publishing some drawing photos when there is a lull in the festivities.
In the meantime can anyone here say whether they have ever seen a small white short stabbing sword like that used by the Romans and I think think it is the 'Dettol' logo.
This was a rarely seen symbol which appeared next to the Tracer marking on APDS/T and denoted that the rear of the sub projectile skirt was lanolin treated. It is seldom seen in markings publications although I have seen it once.
It was peculiar to 6pr, 17pr and 20pr and I saw it once when inspecting one of these types in 1956, but cannot remember which one.
In the meantime can anyone here say whether they have ever seen a small white short stabbing sword like that used by the Romans and I think think it is the 'Dettol' logo.
This was a rarely seen symbol which appeared next to the Tracer marking on APDS/T and denoted that the rear of the sub projectile skirt was lanolin treated. It is seldom seen in markings publications although I have seen it once.
It was peculiar to 6pr, 17pr and 20pr and I saw it once when inspecting one of these types in 1956, but cannot remember which one.
Show me your 17pr rounds
i thought from the Cdn drawing that there was a trace of an air scoop which would help with petal separation. Thanks to SG500 for confirming this.
Drawing 7 shows the nominal propellant makeup NH033. Some Canadian cases were marked with the actual propellant size 0.38, but it was accepted that there was no need to correct this.
The Primer clip for the British cartridges was the No 37 Mk 1 or 2.
i thought from the Cdn drawing that there was a trace of an air scoop which would help with petal separation. Thanks to SG500 for confirming this.
Drawing 7 shows the nominal propellant makeup NH033. Some Canadian cases were marked with the actual propellant size 0.38, but it was accepted that there was no need to correct this.
The Primer clip for the British cartridges was the No 37 Mk 1 or 2.
Attachments
Excellent drawings but raises two immediate questions
1. The drawing of the APPS shows the skirt on the outside of the case or am I imagining this ?
2. The drawings of the APDS, all show the same petal profile, yet I am aware of 3 slightly different profiles dated 1943-45, and none designated as different mks
1. The drawing of the APPS shows the skirt on the outside of the case or am I imagining this ?
2. The drawings of the APDS, all show the same petal profile, yet I am aware of 3 slightly different profiles dated 1943-45, and none designated as different mks
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Show your 17pr rounds
The drawing shows the coning of the shot all the way round which was usual for APDS.
The point about APDS is that this was a desperate period in WWII and they were being trialled to meet a threat that we were so far behind in. I do not want to overdo the obvious. As somebody had an idea it would be produced, trialled and accepted or not. One had only to look at Pathe or Movietone News at the cinema to realise that the tanks in use in Russia were a whole new ball game
I do not know if the RAC centre at Bovingdon changed any shot, but they had the presence of mind to obtain some 17pr anti tank guns and get their workshops to fit them into Shermans, without any authority and trial them so that by the time of D Day there were tanks with nearly comparable in capability to those of the enemy. Had they not done so we might have wound up in the sea. They were put into production in the face of opposition from the Ministry of Supply, because they had not thought of it, but were overruled.
The drawing shows the coning of the shot all the way round which was usual for APDS.
The point about APDS is that this was a desperate period in WWII and they were being trialled to meet a threat that we were so far behind in. I do not want to overdo the obvious. As somebody had an idea it would be produced, trialled and accepted or not. One had only to look at Pathe or Movietone News at the cinema to realise that the tanks in use in Russia were a whole new ball game
I do not know if the RAC centre at Bovingdon changed any shot, but they had the presence of mind to obtain some 17pr anti tank guns and get their workshops to fit them into Shermans, without any authority and trial them so that by the time of D Day there were tanks with nearly comparable in capability to those of the enemy. Had they not done so we might have wound up in the sea. They were put into production in the face of opposition from the Ministry of Supply, because they had not thought of it, but were overruled.
Attachments
The Canadian APDS does appear to show the projectile skirt outside the case mouth. The attached documents show the case is a Canadian Mark 1. Does anyone have such a case or a drawing of the case? It had to have a special neck dimension that was smaller than normal. I am going to guess that they are very rare.
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Ok I found these in my photo archive, and definitely appear to show the skirt outside the case....what is more, it does not look like the standard 17PR case (or 20PR for that matter).
Curiouser and curiouser. (...and not just my utter lack of observation skills)
Given this does indeed look like picture 6 in thread #46 and this isnt an incorrectly cobbled together round, if the case isnt the 76.2 x 583R what is it..?
Curiouser and curiouser. (...and not just my utter lack of observation skills)
Given this does indeed look like picture 6 in thread #46 and this isnt an incorrectly cobbled together round, if the case isnt the 76.2 x 583R what is it..?
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This case has been cannelured and quite low down, so is not an in service APDS/T case because they were all coned at the top. There was only a Mk 1 and 2 case for projectiles and only the Mk 2 case was used for APDS/T. Canadian cases were also coned.
The same applied to 20pr APDS/T.
All the other 17pr projectile cases had 4 equip-spaced indents into a cannelure.
All shot marks used external tracers. The British shot Mk1 used the No 22 and the shot marks 2 and 3 both used the No 29. Canadian shot used Tracer CDN No 1 Mk2.
There is a Canadian case shown with a batch number E66F with CAN before it. All Canadian cases had CAN before or after the batch number.
One thing I found interesting is that there was a Canadian Tracer No 1 Mk1 marking with a large letter 'C' with a small letter 'A' inside it. This indicates that the case is for use by British overseas territories, the 'C' denoting Canada and the 'A' indicating that it is for use by the Army. I thought these markings had ceased just after WW1.
The same applied to 20pr APDS/T.
All the other 17pr projectile cases had 4 equip-spaced indents into a cannelure.
All shot marks used external tracers. The British shot Mk1 used the No 22 and the shot marks 2 and 3 both used the No 29. Canadian shot used Tracer CDN No 1 Mk2.
There is a Canadian case shown with a batch number E66F with CAN before it. All Canadian cases had CAN before or after the batch number.
One thing I found interesting is that there was a Canadian Tracer No 1 Mk1 marking with a large letter 'C' with a small letter 'A' inside it. This indicates that the case is for use by British overseas territories, the 'C' denoting Canada and the 'A' indicating that it is for use by the Army. I thought these markings had ceased just after WW1.
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They're pretty common over here M8, but the angle of the necking is quite different from the case in the picture I showed. If that is an original Canadian case the correct case for the APPS projectile then it looks to have significantly smaller propelling charge
Sorry M8, I didnt word it very well.
The standard 17pr case is pretty easy to find over here....(I cant comment over in the US)
So chop it down if you wish as there won't be a dent in the quantities. Be aware the APDS case (LEFT in picture below) is rarer and has crimps at the very top of the mouth, where as the Standard Case (RIGHT in picture below for AP, APC, APCBC, HE etc ) case has crimps 20mm ish further down)
However the case in the picture with the APPS projectile does not seem to hsve the same profile at the necking point, as the 17pr case...ie even if you chop it wont look quite the same as the case in the picture.
Is this purely a developmental case for a developmental gun similar to 17pr, (but with smaller volume for propellant)... all APPS seem to have DDL numbers?.... I've probably gone off at a tangent but the case in the photo i posted does not look at all like the std 17pr case... am i just plain wrong here ?
The final point I bored people earlier in this thread was the petal design changes within the period 1943-1945.
1944
1943
1945
I don't have more accurate dates and of course this could be different manufacturers etc.
Apologies to all those Ive bored.
The standard 17pr case is pretty easy to find over here....(I cant comment over in the US)
So chop it down if you wish as there won't be a dent in the quantities. Be aware the APDS case (LEFT in picture below) is rarer and has crimps at the very top of the mouth, where as the Standard Case (RIGHT in picture below for AP, APC, APCBC, HE etc ) case has crimps 20mm ish further down)
However the case in the picture with the APPS projectile does not seem to hsve the same profile at the necking point, as the 17pr case...ie even if you chop it wont look quite the same as the case in the picture.
Is this purely a developmental case for a developmental gun similar to 17pr, (but with smaller volume for propellant)... all APPS seem to have DDL numbers?.... I've probably gone off at a tangent but the case in the photo i posted does not look at all like the std 17pr case... am i just plain wrong here ?
The final point I bored people earlier in this thread was the petal design changes within the period 1943-1945.
194419431945I don't have more accurate dates and of course this could be different manufacturers etc.
Apologies to all those Ive bored.
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In answer to my own earlier question regarding the Roman Sword (as I called it).
I have found it in JSA&APM 1960, but it is not in the 1948 edition.
Joint Services Ammunition and Ammunition Package Markings1960, Section 2, Part 1, Para 21
"DAGGER SYMBOL A white dagger placed adjacent to and immediately behind the filled tracer series lot number of Land Service DS shot indicates that the rear taper of the sub projectile has been treated with lanolin."
Has anyone got this marking on any of their DS shot?
I have found it in JSA&APM 1960, but it is not in the 1948 edition.
Joint Services Ammunition and Ammunition Package Markings1960, Section 2, Part 1, Para 21
"DAGGER SYMBOL A white dagger placed adjacent to and immediately behind the filled tracer series lot number of Land Service DS shot indicates that the rear taper of the sub projectile has been treated with lanolin."
Has anyone got this marking on any of their DS shot?
However the case in the picture with the APPS projectile does not seem to have the same profile at the necking point, as the 17pr case...ie even if you chop it wont look quite the same as the case in the picture.
Is this purely a developmental case for a developmental gun similar to 17pr, (but with smaller volume for propellant)... all APPS seem to have DDL numbers?.... I've probably gone off at a tangent but the case in the photo i posted does not look at all like the std 17pr case... am i just plain wrong here ?
View attachment 128810View attachment 128811View attachment 128816
Hi Rich & all
As far as I can see, the "slim" case has nothing to do with 17pdr/77mm APDS. Skirt cannot, IMO, seat outside a case unless it's a separate charge ammo. But the slim case of the picture has the cannellure, that to me exclude a separate charge type. Clearly that case is not meant to fit a 17pdr chamber, nor to hold that projectile.
A M32 or a 3 inch american case, having a rim of 103mm and lenght respectively 580 and 585mm ?
Is this purely a developmental case for a developmental gun similar to 17pr, (but with smaller volume for propellant)... all APPS seem to have DDL numbers?.... I've probably gone off at a tangent but the case in the photo i posted does not look at all like the std 17pr case... am i just plain wrong here ?
View attachment 128810View attachment 128811View attachment 128816
Hi Rich & all
As far as I can see, the "slim" case has nothing to do with 17pdr/77mm APDS. Skirt cannot, IMO, seat outside a case unless it's a separate charge ammo. But the slim case of the picture has the cannellure, that to me exclude a separate charge type. Clearly that case is not meant to fit a 17pdr chamber, nor to hold that projectile.
A M32 or a 3 inch american case, having a rim of 103mm and lenght respectively 580 and 585mm ?
Rich are you sure the ones you show are 17 pounder/77mm and not the 76mm SHOT HVAPDS-T 76/50mm, M331A1 which uses a very similar projectile? See link below.
Dave.
https://forum.cartridgecollectors.org/t/76mm-m331a1-and-m319-dis-assembled/22851
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Hi Dave, no not at all sure,
I've never seen one in person and with little in the way of documentation, have to rely on photos. Given the link you provided Im wondering if it's a Canadian projectile in the wrong case, but cleanly it could be anything.
Apologies for the confusion
In hingsight I also agree with Enrico that it doesn't make sense of the skirt to be outside the case, and that case to have crimp makes....so the difference in dimensions between the APPS and APDS skirts remains a mystery??
I've never seen one in person and with little in the way of documentation, have to rely on photos. Given the link you provided Im wondering if it's a Canadian projectile in the wrong case, but cleanly it could be anything.
Apologies for the confusion
In hingsight I also agree with Enrico that it doesn't make sense of the skirt to be outside the case, and that case to have crimp makes....so the difference in dimensions between the APPS and APDS skirts remains a mystery??
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