Shell identification

[gartmoreheritagesociety]

Good Afternoon,

As part of our research into 25 Ammunition Sub Depot (Forth Valley Scotland - HQ Aberfoyle 1941 - 43 and Gartmore 1943 - 45), I have been handed 4 shells that were found at 'Cardross Camp' (approx 4 miles from Gartmore HQ). Can anyone identify the shells please? I have an idea, but would like a professional opinion please. I've labelled the pictures Shells A to D and transcribed any markings.

Shell A - 4OMM MK4 with arrow, LOT, RLB, 4 N, 957 - In the outer ring A
Shell B - 2Pdr SUB-CAL H.A.Mk II Gun-I, 1928 N RL - other marks 6, 1016, 2 9 DW (in diamond shape) 5 C F F
Shell C - 647 CY 80 PRAC 4Z - on the lower rim J 30mm RG
Shell D - L C 84

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Paul

 

[tankbarrell]

These are cartridge cases, shells are projectiles with a filling, explosive or smoke etc.
A is a cut down 40mm Bofors case made by Royal Laboratories in 1957.
B is a 2 pounder sub calibre case originally used for sub calibre training using an adaptor in a larger gun. Made by Vickers Sons and Maxim.
C is a 30mm Aden aircraft cannon case made at Radway Green.
D is a .50 Browning machine gun case made at Lake City Arsenal.
Others will know more!

 

[gartmoreheritagesociety]

These are cartridge cases, shells are projectiles with a filling, explosive or smoke etc.
A is a cut down 40mm Bofors case made by Royal Laboratories in 1957.
B is a 2 pounder sub calibre case originally used for sub calibre training using an adaptor in a larger gun. Made by Vickers Sons and Maxim.
C is a 30mm Aden aircraft cannon case made at Radway Green.
D is a .50 Browning machine gun case made at Lake City Arsenal.
Others will know more!

Many thanks for your great reply! You note that the Bofors case was made 1957 and cut down (on relooking at my picture I can see the number 1 - I missed it. Why is it cut down? Could you possibly date the other shell cases as well please? I was expecting all to be WWII, and when I saw the 1957 date I thought my assumption of a war years manufacture date might be incorrect - and you've confirmed it. All the shells came from Cardross Camp (25 A.S.D. Pertyhshire, now Stirlingshire, Scotland) which was consructed in 1942 / 43. I wasn't aware the camp was still in operation after the war - but I have no evidence to suggest that it was closed after the war. But why would it be kept open? The declassified war diaries I have from 25 A.S.D. stop in October 1945, so it's now occurring to me that there may be other records (buried in the National Archives - as were the 25 A.S.D. records) to point to a later closing date. A mystery which I'm determined to crack! Many thanks in anticipation.

Paul

 

[ron3350]

Here are my answers to dates on your cases.
1957 for the 40mm Bofors ( should be a 311mm case).
.50 cal is 1984.
30mm Aden was filled by Chorley (CY) in 1980 as a Practice Mk4Z.
2Pr Vickers was a VSM Vickers 2 Pr Mk1 case from 1916 that was reloaded at least 3 times and converted to a sub-cal High-angle (HA) and half the rim knurled for ID and the case shortened from 157mm to 108mm possibly in 1923. There may be a later date in 1930's too? hard to read.

 

[gartmoreheritagesociety]

Many thanks for your great reply! You note that the Bofors case was made 1957 and cut down (on relooking at my picture I can see the number 1 - I missed it. Why is it cut down? Could you possibly date the other shell cases as well please? I was expecting all to be WWII, and when I saw the 1957 date I thought my assumption of a war years manufacture date might be incorrect - and you've confirmed it. All the shells came from Cardross Camp (25 A.S.D. Pertyhshire, now Stirlingshire, Scotland) which was consructed in 1942 / 43. I wasn't aware the camp was still in operation after the war - but I have no evidence to suggest that it was closed after the war. But why would it be kept open? The declassified war diaries I have from 25 A.S.D. stop in October 1945, so it's now occurring to me that there may be other records (buried in the National Archives - as were the 25 A.S.D. records) to point to a later closing date. A mystery which I'm determined to crack! Many thanks in anticipation.

Paul

Here are my answers to dates on your cases.
1957 for the 40mm Bofors ( should be a 311mm case).
.50 cal is 1984.
30mm Aden was filled by Chorley (CY) in 1980 as a Practice Mk4Z.
2Pr Vickers was a VSM Vickers 2 Pr Mk1 case from 1916 that was reloaded at least 3 times and converted to a sub-cal High-angle (HA) and half the rim knurled for ID and the case shortened from 157mm to 108mm possibly in 1923. There may be a later date in 1930's too? hard to read.

Thanks Ron, So nothing WWII about the three shells?

Here are my answers to dates on your cases.
1957 for the 40mm Bofors ( should be a 311mm case).
.50 cal is 1984.
30mm Aden was filled by Chorley (CY) in 1980 as a Practice Mk4Z.
2Pr Vickers was a VSM Vickers 2 Pr Mk1 case from 1916 that was reloaded at least 3 times and converted to a sub-cal High-angle (HA) and half the rim knurled for ID and the case shortened from 157mm to 108mm possibly in 1923. There may be a later date in 1930's too? hard to read.

So nothing to suggest that any of the shells are from WWII - the years in question. Cardross Camp came into existence in early 1941 to accommodate the Pioneer Corps. So can I conclude that there's no evidence, from your observations, that these shells were anything to do with 1941-45?

 

[ron3350]

Only the 2Pr Vickers sub-cal MAY have still been used in 41-45 but it is a Navy case.

 

[gartmoreheritagesociety]

Thanks Ron, So nothing WWII about the three shells?

So nothing to suggest that any of the shells are from WWII - the years in question. Cardross Camp came into existence in early 1941 to accommodate the Pioneer Corps. So can I conclude that there's no evidence, from your observations, that these shells were anything to do with 1941-45?

Only the 2Pr Vickers sub-cal MAY have still been used in 41-45 but it is a Navy case.

I think we can write these shell cases off regarding their storage at 25A.S.D. There's no mention in the 25ASD War Diaries of the kinds of ammunition you've identified being stored here - apart from Bofors 40mm...... and our example is 1957. Many many thanks. Paul

 

[charley777]

Thanks Ron, So nothing WWII about the three shells?

So nothing to suggest that any of the shells are from WWII - the years in question. Cardross Camp came into existence in early 1941 to accommodate the Pioneer Corps. So can I conclude that there's no evidence, from your observations, that these shells were anything to do with 1941-45?

As mentioned above, these are NOT shells. They are cartridge cases

 

[gartmoreheritagesociety]

As mentioned above, these are NOT shells. They are cartridge cases

My mistake Charley. Im not an expert by any means. I really appreciate all the help in receiving. Paul

 

[gartmoreheritagesociety]

Hi Charley,

My metal detecting friends were detecting on a WWII camp area yesterday (Cardross Campp 25 A.S.D. Scotland) and found these items. The dated item I would say is a firing pin - but I'd like to know everything about it if possibe - calibre of shell, what was it fired in, etc?, One of the bullets is coloured red - why is this? The pointed item was found buried next to the firing pin. I was wondering if you might be able to shed some light the pictures for me. Paul

 

[sgdbdr]

Looks like a drill projectile for a 2-pr gun...

 

[gartmoreheritagesociety]

Looks like a drill projectile for a 2-pr gun...

What does? Forgive me, but I know very little about this subject.

 

[gartmoreheritagesociety]

There was this object too. Any ideas?

 

[ron3350]

You have the remains of a 2Pr Anti-tank Drill round (40 x 304R) made by Firestone, USA. Usually these were brass nose and base connected by the long bolt with weights and covered in black rubber. I have not seen any red cased .303 rounds so it is possibly just red dirt?

 

[gartmoreheritagesociety]

You have the remains of a 2Pr Anti-tank Drill round (40 x 304R) made by Firestone, USA. Usually these were brass nose and base connected by the long bolt with weights and covered in black rubber. I have not seen any red cased .303 rounds so it is possibly just red dirt?

There were a number of rifle bullets together - some were distictly red - the picture shows one that wasn't red. Do the 'pin' and the pointed object belong together?

 

[gartmoreheritagesociety]

There were a number of rifle bullets together - some were distictly red - the picture shows one that wasn't red. Do the 'pin' and the pointed object belong together?

Which gun would the 2pdr have been fired from?

 

[sgdbdr]

It is litteraly engraved on the bottom : "2-pr Mks IX and X Guns"

 

[gartmoreheritagesociety]

It is litteraly engraved on the bottom : "2-pr Mks IX and X Guns"

I spotted that but I wasn't sure what Mk2 IX and X guns were. When I googled the information stamped on the base there were a number of guns that came up. e.g. The Cruiser Mk I, the Matilda II infantry support tank, the Light Tank Mk VII, the Daimler armored car, and the Vickers QF 2-pounder Mark IX on Carriage Mark I.... so I figured the shell could be fired from all of them. But I wanted to ask the experts first before making mistakes.

 

[sgdbdr]

The manual would be "Handbook for the ordnance, Q.F. 2 pr., Marks IX and X on carriages, Q.F. 2 pr., Marks I and II (Land Service), 1938" but I can't find it online.

 

[Snufkin]

As to what the pristine drill round would have looked like, see here:

2-pr drill