Question about Pak 43 & Kwk 43 cases : Only steel cases or brass cases exist ?

[kz11gr]

Hello

My question is in the title.

Have you seen some brass Pak/Kwk 43 cases ?

Personally I think these cases have always been made of steel.

regards

 

[kz11gr]

This seems to be a great mystery apparently

 

[greif]

I have seen many 8,8 cm Kwk 43 cases , but never one in brass.
I used to have an early one in my collection that was also from steel and marked 8,8 cm Kwk 42.
Perhaps this was a marking in the experimental phase of the gun and lacked the case number 6388St.

 

[Hoeksel]

I actually remember seeing a brass 8,8 cm KwK 43 marked bottom on an ordnance fair......I think I know who showed it, will ask.

 

[Hoeksel]

Already got an answer, a brass 8,8 cm KwK 43 does exist and was in the collection of Joop Dijkman (RIP).

 

[greif]

I thought I knew the German WW2 collection of Joop very well, because I did many restoration paint jobs for him , but never saw a brass Kwk 43 case in his collection. But I could be wrong.
Below a picture of the concerning case which is marked 8,8 cm KwK 42. The case is in the collection of Fjordhouse nowadays.

 

[Alpini]

Mass production of most tanks/guns with the KwK 34 started in 1944. In 1944 only case No. 6388 St (Steel) was made by the following companies:

DWM Borsigwalde
Metall u. Eisen GmbH Nuernberg (The example Greif posted)
Zieh- und Presswerk Enzesfeld
WMF Geislingen

Monthly production was between 150000 and 200000 pieces.

If any brass case exists, it's an early experimental one. Also it makes zero sense to start a mass production of such a large case in brass in the year 1943 where brass stocks already were very limited.

 

[Hoeksel]

Unfortunately I have no image nor can I get one. I am absolutely sure I saw it and I had this bottom part in my hands. But I do not recall any details I would love to have today.

I agree mass production does not make sense. Experimentally so much has been done..... although I do not why bother in this example.

 

[Kilroy]

Hello

My question is in the title.

Have you seen some brass Pak/Kwk 43 cases ?

Personally I think these cases have always been made of steel.

regards

There was indeed some confusion on those giant cartridges. There was competition on who would make the next generation 88mm gun, Rhinemetal or Krupp. As you might know, BOTH produced a decent upgraded cannon, but which one was mounted in the King II tank was the winner. I have a Flak40 round here, and that was mounted for Africa Corps anti tank & maybe flak uses. The Pak43 was the steel reliable case, and the Flak 41 NEEDED a brass case due to barrel swap out joint pinching steel cases where the threaded joints for barrel replacement happened, jamming them in the chamber. So the Flak40 African model absolutely needed brass cases, which were a devil to make as well. They were some ot the longest cases ever made,n and German tool makers told me they cursed having to tweak in those final shapes the engineers demanded.

So this is how to recall: Steel Case won the competition and was used widely in towed 9 ton behemoth anti-tank guns, and was also mounted in the King II as the L71 gun.
The Flak 41 was a very similar design, but because of case jams, was discontinued after North Africa, and always needed brass cases. They might as well could have
needed to be made from Platinum, so rare was the copper to make the brass, but they were a decent weapon except for the pinching of steel cases in the Flak40 barrel joint parting line for swapping out worn out barrel sections, so they needed brass cases, which was VERBOTEN!!!

It was a genuine headache for German factories, and in honesty, I am probably in the right ballpark for giving you the info, but I don't know offhand which company won the competition for the L71 caliber King II gun that became standard, and the Flak41 which was very similar, but was close but no cigar.for getting the contract. I also could not find out which company won the contract....Rhinemetal, or Krupp. They were both superbly brilliant design and R&D experts, but who won that contest I do not know,.
Here's a picture of the Flak41 cannon as deployed to Africa, where it was found wanting and was captured. It, like all German equipment of size, needed time to perfect.
You can see that the shells no longer needed to be lifted high overhead like the first version. You could handle it much easier around waist high due to brilliant design.

 

[Hoeksel]

Another theory is that maybe it was, like Greif is showing, another "normal" brass case that was marked incorrectly. This is rare, but not uncommon. I have seen several examples on (steel) cases, for example I also had a 15 cm sIG33 case marked as 15 cm sFH13 (which was factory crossed out). I do not recall seeing a "typo" on brass cases yet....but I can imagine during war-time mass production simply the pressure and the amount of cases made, more errors will be made. I wish I could recover that item with the knowledge I have today.