Ownership of Militaria/ordnance.

[havoc]

No worries my young friend,
The thing is if indeed the items do ever get made illegal to own without a licence then imagine the trouble if caught with correct documentation?
Its a question of time i reckon before the law changes,dunno why? Its just a feeling im getting in general when i read about raids and things being taken away.

regards

waff

Hi All,

I know the recent person hit personally so from the horses mouth so to speak ive heard: It was all British ordnance taken apart from some German AP rounds, as the EOD reckon they couldnt prove the projectiles were inert ?????? And the British gear is owned by the MO, as they do not release it to the public !! So what happens at Beltring this year then?? Apparantly they dont want to stir up the hornets nest !!!
Waff, i hate to say this but im thinking similar nowadays. A terrible shame if it goes that way. They would be best looking into the real threats to ours and everyones nations, rather than the law abiding collector, well you know what i mean :angel:.
Nowadays i cant comment too much on ownership as i regrettably had to sell my whole collection due to redundancy and now have nothing.

I gather the best way is whats been mentioned, keep Mum or dont go down that road. A dam shame is this happens. Whats happened to good old England?????

Interesting reading all, Fingers crossed for all of us.

Havoc.

 

[exat808]

I tend to agree with TimG and his view that EOD dont do house calls. Anecdotally I would suggest that many police seizures of inert ordnance items come about as part of investigations into other alleged activities - some of which may go unreported or undisclosed by the "victim" for whatever reason! By way of balance in this issue I am also sure that there have been some seizures where by virtue of lack of understanding of legislation by the enforcers, articles have been taken from collectors and subsequently destroyed inappropriately.
So does this not push the hobby towards a self regulating/registration scheme recognised by all enforcers?

 

[jayteepee_1999]

The EOD Units only work on instructions from the Police.

The Police would not raid without due cause, someone must have reported the items or some sort of deal problem, postal infringement, live ordnance or items being on view to public and someone got frightened etc etc.

 

[V40]

As EODTEC has spoken about the laws here in the USofA. In my 20+ years working for the Sheriff's Office and various other Departments I have never heard of those laws.

All I know is that everything found live is rapped up tight and given to the EOD's from the Air Force. The base I believe is near Columbus, maybe even Rickenbacker AFB. Or even Wright-Paterson AFB. Don't worry there is area type 51 there. The Air Force's EOD team will usually seperate the grenade into items such as the detonator and the powder out of the grenade by using Acetone or something else. Now the grenade body itself is INERT. Then they take the detonator and do something with that and now the grenade is completely INERT. They then sometimes ask the EOD Techs here if they now want it back. They wouldn't accept so it gets throne into liquid Iron in some Refinery somewhere. What a waste.

Now sometimes you get caught with a buch of totaly INERT ITEMS and your neighbor finds this out. He or she doesn't no sh!t about your items and they place a call to Barney Fife and he sees all of them. Guess what happens next.

What is usually found in Ohio is mostly "Live" grenades in between walls of the house. Those houses were built in the early 1930's. You live there and never know what a contractor may find when he starts tearing down a wall in your house. Our bomb squad has had quite a bit of experience with these. I believe it is the proximity of the Ravenna Arsenal which at the height of WWII thru Vietnam produced everything from Artillary shells to grenades.

Sorry for the long winded conversation. It p!sses me off to hear stories like these.

 

[havoc]

Just to confirm, the Police were there First. The EOD turned up a little later, after a call i gather.
Regards,
H.

 

[TimG]

"So does this not push the hobby towards a self regulating/registration scheme recognised by all enforcers?" exat808

I can see a lot of merit in this. It could be argued that such a scheme offers more in protection than in restrictions. A lot of 'grey areas' could be cleared up and hopefully the enforcers would be made aware of. When you look at what ammunition you can collect if you hold a UK Firearms Certificate (collectors), there's a lot of latitude there.

Regards

TimG.

P.S. Please, can any of our European members (not UK) explain what, if any, regulations they have in their countries.

 

[Jolly Green]

Just my two cents here.
My two most recent experiences with the Federalies.
I got a call once from from a government accounting office about a Dragon Rocket Launcher I bought on eBay.
The guy prefaced the conversation by saying I'd done nothing wrong, that I was totally within the the law to have it, that they could not TAKE it back without my permission but would like it back and would pay me what I payed for it.
"Why do you want it so bad?" I asked.
I was told it was used in Iraq and it was sent back to be destroyed and was then sold by mistake.
I told him that as a collector it's worth had now been multiplied because it was fired in anger and gave him a kind "No Thanks."

Most recently I had my whole collection inspected AND x-rayed by the ATF and MA. State Police because I had bought from the wrong guy in Germany.(Another story for another day)
The ATF guys loved my collection (all except for the bomb techs that had to x-ray it all) and nothing was taken away from me at all.
I asked the ATF if they'd want notification of any further purchases and they said "No" and I was well within in the law in my pursuit.
My neighbors all look at me sideways now. It may have been the ATF and State Police Bomb Squad trucks. Just a theory.:dontknow:

 

[pointblank0]

Just to confirm, the Police were there First. The EOD turned up a little later, after a call i gather.
Regards,
H.

The Police in the UK may raid a premises for a number of reasons, sometimes with next to no info, it may be based on a warrant along side immigration or custome etc. It may be completely unrelated to ordnance. The problem is that if a Police officer finds ANYTHING, explosives related or firearms related, it has to be seized as UK police officers are not EOD trained or firearms trained unless thay are specialised, which means they probably would not be involved in a house search anyway. An example of this is when I searched a man in the street a few years ago and recovered a Beretta 92 from the back of his belt. I unloaded the pistol and placed it on the floor and arrested the male. I was then threatened with my job further down the line for handling a firearm without proper Police training!! Don't get me wrong, I have received training in firearms, just not in the Police, and my argument was that I felt a lot safer with an unloaded gun on the floor by a dangerous suspect than a loaded one. Bottom line is that no Police officer in the UK will take the risk of being fired! Just the way it is I'm afraid.

 

[exat808]

I think that we would all agree that around the world there is a great deal of misunderstanding/mistrust/suspicion of those who choose to collect inert ordnance ( I worry about people who collect stuffed animals but.....)
Specifically in the UK, what can be done to right some of the wrongs?
We have no specific legislation to cover the activity and in my view we have enough legislation in respect of explosives/firearms at present so I would agree "no more laws".
So back to a point that I raised in an earlier post - should the hobby police itself?
If a responsible lead body for the hobby(BOCN?) can put into place a very simple, easy and cheap to administer scheme of registration for its members and that registration within that scheme is then recognised at the appropriate level by all enforcing authorities would we not perhaps have fewer horror stories ? Alongside registration would possibly be a set of basic standards and best practice guidelines for the hobby - nothing too intense but something that displays a level of competence to the authorities. There will always be those who choose not to subscribe to such a system - thats democracy.
Similar schemes that display competence within hobbies exist within the circles of historical re-enactment, model rocketry, and the use of explosives for cave exploration to name a few.
Over to you...........

 

[grog18b]

My very small .02c...

Logically, once the "Government" drops, shoots, lays, propels, or otherwise launches it towards the enemy... I'd consider it "abandoned". :wink:

 

[dano1917]

Here in the US obsolete military including de-milled ordnance are sold off, usually to war surplus stores, at which time the US relinquishes all claim to it being United States property. Many times surplus is sold by the government bulk at auctions where it goes to the highest bidder. All ordnance items are of course de-milled (sometimes cut to bits). Then the surplus store in turn sells it to collectors and/or campers or just someone who wants the damned stuff. The coolest piece of ordnance I ever saw is for sale at Indiana Army Surplus which is a WW2 dated depth charge (really cool) for 450.00 which when you think about it is an extremely reasonable price. They also sell 20mm guns but the barrels have been cut which may be reworked and welded to at least make a presentable display piece. Most surplus stores sell not much more than glorified junk...Dano

 

[AMMOTECHXT]

In UK it is standard practice for the police to call military EOD for items of ammo where they do not officially have the knowledge to determine whether such items are inert. In those circumstances the military take the lead in the EOD task and the police are there to provide public indemnity, in practice meaning that if something goes wrong and a member of the public is injured, the police presence demonstrates that the military were there as part of a lawful activity, tasked by police. It would be up to the military to determine whether their EOD staff were doing it correctly.

I have found that if the police are alerted to you then it is best to be honest and up front about your activities and what you have. Trying to hide something is not a good policy. In 1986 a jobsworth coastguard had a rant at me, ignored what i was telling him and came back an hour later with a police officer in tow. The police officer had the courtesy to listen to all I had to say, used his commonsense and discretion and declared that I was not breaking any laws. He then went about his business. I met Jobsworth again in the same area about a year later and he seemed surprised to see me. I understand he is happily living in retirement now. The outcome is often down to the discretion of the attending police officer.

If EOD personnel turn up as tasked by police they invariably take away or destroy all that is found, so that it no longer can turn up in the hands of the public, thereby preventing a later tasking. When I was in that organisation it was unofficial policy, for example with hand grenades, to apply a demolition charge if feasible and destroy the grenade, whether or not it was live, as a warning to people that what they had found may well be very dangerous. I believe that these days the emphasis is more firmly on identification and dealing proportionately with the items encountered.