Mystery British 3in projectile.

[HoldThePickle24]

Hi everyone, thanks for allowing me to join the forum. I’m trying to identify this strange projectile. It’s just about 76mm, it has a flat/flush drive band, and a little protruding cavity at the base. It also has a few stamps, including the broad arrow. It also has “CX6 96” stamped on it.

A pretty knowledgeable friend thinks it’s an early 13pdr shell. After he suggested that, I took the No.85 fuze off an13pdr I have and it does fit the threads or this shell. He said it would go to the first iteration of the 13pdr gun which was a bag gun. He never really explained what the cavity on the back would be though.

Anyway, any thoughts or insights from the group members would be appreciated!

 

[sgdbdr]

You should also consider the possibility of rockets.

 

[HoldThePickle24]

You should also consider the possibility of rockets.

Oh, I’d consider any possibility at this point. lol A rocket was discussed, but the drive band really seems weird for a rocket. I don’t know much about rockets, but the nose fuze also seems unlikely, to me. Do rockets use fuzes like that? I thought they just detonate at the end of their propellant powder train.

 

[Chris]

it doesn't look like a driving band to me.

chris

 

[tigbrand]

Could be loading practice drill. Would expect it to be marked with the calibre though.

 

[HoldThePickle24]

it doesn't look like a driving band to me.

chris

Yeah, not like any driving band I’ve seen. However, I did come across an article talking about then early guns were converting to rifled, but still muzzle-loading, there were shells with flush driving bands (so they could go down the barrel) and the gasses from firing would expand them from the inside to engage the rifling. And the first 13pdr was rifled muzzle loading to my understanding, so a possibility. It just doesn’t look like the drawings of shells from that time that I’ve seen.

 

[HoldThePickle24]

Could be loading practice drill. Would expect it to be marked with the calibre though.

The guy that told me he thinks it’s from the early 13pdr gun said it’s a drill round I have here, as well. What would make it a drill round though? Whats with the flat driving band and the cavity on the back?

 

[tigbrand]

The guy that told me he thinks it’s from the early 13pdr gun said it’s a drill round I have here, as well. What would make it a drill round though? Whats with the flat driving band and the cavity on the back?

The band is machined flush as it would be damaged by continued loading into the breach. But still visible to look correct. It looks like the rear would allow you to pull the shell out after loading with a tool or your fingers?
They are usually plugged and weighted with an inert filler. Ive seen 15pdr BL, 25pdr etc.
I don't recognise that specific type though, so hopefully someone will confirm or not!

 

[TimG]

@HoldThePickle24

If the object can take an 85 fuze, the nose is threaded 2" GS Fuze which wasn't introduced until 1904. The copper band is far too thin for a QF 13 Pr and there is insufficient metal below the copper band for it to be trusted to stay in a cartridge case. Perhaps a thorough clean may reveal more markings.

TimG

 

[HoldThePickle24]

@HoldThePickle24

If the object can take an 85 fuze, the nose is threaded 2" GS Fuze which wasn't introduced until 1904. The copper band is far too thin for a QF 13 Pr and there is insufficient metal below the copper band for it to be trusted to stay in a cartridge case. Perhaps a thorough clean may reveal more markings.

TimG

Yes, the thin/flush drive band is really strange, not to mention the set screw that is in it. That and the cavity on the back. Several people have suggest a drill cartridge, which I’m not at all familiar with.

There are a few other markings but are hard to make out. I’ll attach photos.

 

[Snufkin]

The manufacturer's monogram (third photo) appears to be PM/BD, albeit the P is somewhat indistinct: PM - Phoenix Motors Ltd, Letchworth, Hertfordshire, and BD - Bedford munitions sub-district.

Phoenix Motors produced various HE shell including 13-pr HE MkIB (from May 1918), 18-pr HE and 6-inch HE (rectification thereof). The first photo shows numbers and letters barred out, which is indicative of a conversion, and there appears to be the new shell number CX6_96. This number is just above a broad arrow in an oval, a transfer stamp indicating HE steel that has passed various analytical and mechanical tests for Land Service use.

If this started life as a 13-pr HE MkIB (for the 13-pr 9cwt anti aircraft gun), then for reasons to be determined it was converted by having the base machined back to the top of where the crimping groove for the cartridge case was originally, to leave the base "socket", and the drive band was machined off. It might have been converted to a drill shell, to enable drill extraction of a lodged shell.

One further photo looking into the mouth of the shell would be useful, to confirm it is an HE body and also to show if there is any constriction at the bottom. As accurate a measurement of the width of the copper band would also be helpful.

 

[MINENAZ16]

This shell is a mystery.
-my first thought : body shape similar with 3in 20cwt HE (what is the length ?). I made a comparaison with paint.
-The band : looks too thin for a driving band (even machined). Seems to be made of brass instead of copper. Brass band are very uncommon. A screw in a driving band ???
-The base is strange. I think it's not that but makes me think to a location to fix a copper gas check for RML shells.
-Drill round could be the solution.

 

[HoldThePickle24]

This shell is a mystery.
-my first thought : body shape similar with 3in 20cwt HE (what is the length ?). I made a comparaison with paint.
-The band : looks too thin for a driving band (even machined). Seems to be made of brass instead of copper. Brass band are very uncommon. A screw in a driving band ???
-The base is strange. I think it's not that but makes me think to a location to fix a copper gas check for RML shells.
-Drill round could be the solution.

I can’t believe I never listed the dimensions! ‍ Sorry about that. The shell body is 9.25in/235mm in overall length, 76mm in diameter, and the fuze opening is about 48mm in diameter. I’ll attach a few measurement photos.

Everything seems like a match with yours and @Snufkin information, but the driving band. It seems awfully narrow, at about 3/8in or 9.5mm. I *think* the band is copper, but I’m not sure how to tell for certain. The set screw is a real puzzle. However another fellow recently said it’s a drill round that had mods to attach to a special drill cartridge case contraption. It’s really sounding like it was a regular 3in 20cwt shell that they modify for training. Again, I’m not sure about the skinny band tho.

 

[Burney Davis]

It is the projectile for a 3" 20cwt loading practice drill round. I've attached pictures below showing the hook which attached to the base of the shell. On loading the lever at the base released the hook from the projectile and the cartridge was extracted from the breach. The projectile wouldn't have engaged the rifling being completely smooth.

 

[TimG]

How deep is the cavity at the fuze?
How deep is the hole on the periphery of the base and is it angled inwards?
I suspect this might have started life as a Day Tracer projectile.

TimG