J
John D. Bartleson Jr.
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What is the name of the book by Rains and his fuse? John
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Mines of Fort Wagner (1863)
- Thread starter Ivashkin
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Bellifortis
Well-Known Member
Hallo John,
Rains writings were never published as a book before. Apparently the manuscript is kept in the collection of the US military academy. The book, written by Herbert M. Schiller 2011 is titled : "Confederate Torpedoes" Two illustrated 19th Century Works with New Appendices and Photographs, Gabriel J.Rains and Peter S.Mitchie. It is a reproduction of the 2 manuscripts plus photographs taken by Schiller in the storage of the collection. The publisher is McFarland & Company,Inc.,Jefferson,North Carolina and London and the ISBN 978-0-7864-6332-9
It's a 25,5cm x 17,5cm paperback.
Regards,
Bellifortis.
Rains writings were never published as a book before. Apparently the manuscript is kept in the collection of the US military academy. The book, written by Herbert M. Schiller 2011 is titled : "Confederate Torpedoes" Two illustrated 19th Century Works with New Appendices and Photographs, Gabriel J.Rains and Peter S.Mitchie. It is a reproduction of the 2 manuscripts plus photographs taken by Schiller in the storage of the collection. The publisher is McFarland & Company,Inc.,Jefferson,North Carolina and London and the ISBN 978-0-7864-6332-9
It's a 25,5cm x 17,5cm paperback.
Regards,
Bellifortis.
J
John D. Bartleson Jr.
Guest
There is an old document in our 'Downloads" section on Torpedoes and Torpedo tactics. John
Bellifortis
Well-Known Member
Hallo Ivan,
I had been hoping for your informed answer on my above question. Meanwhile I found some interesting info in a book on the life of Alfred Nobel, which I bought years ago at the Nobel Museum at the Bofors factory in Sweden. His father Immanuel Nobel emigrated with his family to St.Petersburg in 1841
and set up a big factory (up to 1000 workers) to manufacture sea-and land-mines for the Zar of Russia. Attached are 2 fotos from the swedish book.Regards,
Bellifortis.
Hallo Belifors,
I know about Nobels in Russia.
Really helped old american books about sea mines. They told a lot of information.
Thanks for pictures. Mines used in Russia Impire and before Nobel
Bellifortis
Well-Known Member
Hallo Ivan,
do you have pictures of Imperial Russian victim actuated (not manualy by observer) land mines before 1850 and pictures of the Nobel land mines ? From what date is the earliest description of the Sulfuric Acid / Chlorate-Shugar fuse (Professor Jacobi named as inventor in western literature) that you could find in Russia ? What is the earliest description of the so called "Finnish Fuze" (wire corroded by acid) that you could find ? I'm very much interested to hear your answer on this questions.
Regards,
Bellifortis.
do you have pictures of Imperial Russian victim actuated (not manualy by observer) land mines before 1850 and pictures of the Nobel land mines ? From what date is the earliest description of the Sulfuric Acid / Chlorate-Shugar fuse (Professor Jacobi named as inventor in western literature) that you could find in Russia ? What is the earliest description of the so called "Finnish Fuze" (wire corroded by acid) that you could find ? I'm very much interested to hear your answer on this questions.
Regards,
Bellifortis.
Belifors,
Mmmm land-mines before 1850 :tinysmile_classes_t
There`re forts Golovinski and Navaganski on the coast of Black sea were land-mines (fugas) with mercury contactors. In the same year on the waterside river Argun good Russian sappers blew up Chechen or Dagestan rebels cannon. I have gravure of this action
Earliest description of Sulfuric Acid / Chlorate-Shugar fuse I found a bit confused and probably strange (from book of 1912 about history of engineer forces): In September of 1840 Nobel proposed to Russian government two mines galvanic Confused situation in this mine has and Sulfuric Acid and Chlorate-Shugar. And in the same moment I didn`t fined in description reference why does it call galvanic mine. I think it some failed in description and were two mines and galvanic and pyro. Nobel wanted 25.000 rubels in assignations for his mine.
As I know first Jacobi mine was electric and Nobel produced this mine for Russian Army in 1854! But in document, which dated 1847 he told about automatic mine, but it`s mine with electrical detonator. I`m afraid not Jacobi made this deathly famous mix - Sulfuric Acid+Chlorate-Shugar. Oh my God, what I found? :angel:
Unfortunatly I don`t know more, as I wrote in topic about Finnish fuze. As I know, all devices from Soviet book found on battlefield. Were few books with speciality for different countries. For Finnish printed special book, page from which you show here on BOCN. This book printed in 1942, but in memuars one soviet sapper, who was working during Winter war I found few examples of time-delay finnish mines in the hous. He wrote about chemical fuze, but in his book about Finnish body-traps and land-mines during Winter wat he didn`t give description of this fuze.
Description of Nobel sea mine isn`t rare in Russian books, but land-mines I didn`t fined.
Ivan.
Bellifortis
Well-Known Member
Thank youu for your answer Ivan. Do you have any technical drawing/description of the landmines/fuzing of Golovinski and Navaganski and the mercury contactors ? By the way, in the swedish book it is mentioned that Nobel produced 2 types of mines, an electric (galvanic batterie) fired one and a pyrotechnically fuzed one. The name "Fugas" you use for old land mines, is this the same as "Fougasse", a hole in the ground loaded with powder and stones or grenades as projectiles, which were always command fired manually, not victim actuated ?
Regards,
Bellifortis.
Regards,
Bellifortis.
Unfortunatly article doesn`t have any details about constraction of mine field about Golovinski and Navaganski forts. Probably in that time mercury wasn`t expensive and it was easy to get, but and the same momen they didn`t have anything with simillar properties. Mercurry was useing everywhere in mines! Fugas is fugas (like old land-mines) and fugas with stones (as you described) is stone fugas
on Russian - камнемёт or камнемётный фугас. First stone fugases activated by electricity (like and sea mines!), but a bit later started to use fuzes from artillery. I mean artillery tubes for activeting powder charge, which gives energy to shell. I know fugases with this artillery tubes were useing during Russian-Turkish war in 1877-78 years. I know definitely one example! And during battle near mountain Shipka were used few stone fugas mine fields (sorry for tautology :tinysmile_fatgrin_t) - I sow old map in old Russian military engineering magazine.By the way, during Russian-Turkish war 1877-78 in Russian Army was special demining team, which searched turkish powder fugases around one castle. Turkish fugases activerid by powder line in wooden tube. I think it first Russian demining team :tinysmile_tongue_t: In in US Army during 1861-65 mines weren`t searching by special team, then could be it was first special demining team in the world
Ivan.
Bellifortis
Well-Known Member
Hallo Ivan,
when you speak of Mercury, do you mean the explosive salt Mercury Fulminate or the pure liquid metal Mercury ? The terminology on this subject is very important. A "Fougasse" is an old (probably used since the 16th century) earth/stone mortar. The word "Mine" originates from the subterranean mines of old and miners were the men that dug the shafts and tunnels. So these experts were the ones to be first used to construct explosive "Mines", tunnels dug under a fort and a powder chamber filled with black powder, to blow up a fort. Ignition for both was the same, a lead-fire tube. So MINE = underground explosive charge and "Fougasse"= mortar in modern usage. These underground dug "Mines" were probably in use since the 12th century. What I'm still searching for, is the first employment of a victim actuated land mine which reacts on a man stepping on to it. I thought, up till last year, that the "Rain's Fuze" (US civil war) was the first, but, the above mentioned literature sources tell of russian employment already around 1840. If you believe, that Professor Jacobi was not the inventor of the H2SO4-Chlorate/Shugar igniter, who was the inventor of its use in mines ? This must have occured between 1789 (B.Pelletier's realization of the reaction) and 1840 (published use in mines in russia). You mention electric mines by Jacobi. Do you have any drawings of those ?
Regards,
Bellifortis.
when you speak of Mercury, do you mean the explosive salt Mercury Fulminate or the pure liquid metal Mercury ? The terminology on this subject is very important. A "Fougasse" is an old (probably used since the 16th century) earth/stone mortar. The word "Mine" originates from the subterranean mines of old and miners were the men that dug the shafts and tunnels. So these experts were the ones to be first used to construct explosive "Mines", tunnels dug under a fort and a powder chamber filled with black powder, to blow up a fort. Ignition for both was the same, a lead-fire tube. So MINE = underground explosive charge and "Fougasse"= mortar in modern usage. These underground dug "Mines" were probably in use since the 12th century. What I'm still searching for, is the first employment of a victim actuated land mine which reacts on a man stepping on to it. I thought, up till last year, that the "Rain's Fuze" (US civil war) was the first, but, the above mentioned literature sources tell of russian employment already around 1840. If you believe, that Professor Jacobi was not the inventor of the H2SO4-Chlorate/Shugar igniter, who was the inventor of its use in mines ? This must have occured between 1789 (B.Pelletier's realization of the reaction) and 1840 (published use in mines in russia). You mention electric mines by Jacobi. Do you have any drawings of those ?
Regards,
Bellifortis.
When I speak Mercury I mean only liquid metal Mercury, not any explosive with Mercury or some another combination with Mercury. Because Mercury Fulminate is Mercury Fulminate
Yes-yes, I agree with your notes about "fougases" and "mines". Sorry, if you were confused, but whet I wote "fougase" I mean only like land-mine. Sea or tiver is another mine and if what - I`ll write what exactly I mean, because I know about thist synonyms. And if it stone fougase I`ll write what exactly it is.
I think Rain`s fuse wasn`t first, because Jacobi or Nobel was first. It was or Jacobi or Nobel. Sorry, but I`m not very big specialist in sea mine and can`t tell you exactly about difference between Nobel and Jacobi sea pyro mines. I`ll check it!
I heared a lot of times, that Jacobi found this combination - H2SO4+Chlorate/Shugar igniter, but really could be Nobel made it first. Could be and this - Jacobi was Russian engineer, but Nobel not and in country was politic "own inventors". I`ll try to check it!
ivan.
Jacobi pyro mine.
1 - safety bolt; 2 - metal tube; 3 - capsule with H2SO4; 4 - wadding with Chlorate and Shugar; 5 - powder; 6 - body; 7 - dee; 8 - powder charge; 9 - plumbum tube; 10 - zinc cylinder; 11-pin, 12-safety cap, 13 - float
In document about developing mines, whic dated 24/07/1847 talks next (about Jacobi experiments with sea mines): "pyrophoric mines,presented in 1844..." But in the same moment in book about developing sea mines in Russian Fleet I found this footnote:
"Blowing up of Nobel mines produces of H2SO4+Chlorate and Shugar. Chlorate and Shugar was in glass tube, which destroied when vessel contacted with mine. This device improved by Jacobi and first Nobel variant and didn`t remain anything from first Nobel idea"!!!!:tinysmile_fatgrin_t
And in another book I found those nice pictures - http://wunderwaffe.narod.ru/WeaponBook/MO_05/chap03.html with Nobel mines. As you see, on the third picture Nobel mine, but looks like Jacobi mine
Unfortunatly I think it was politic of "own inventors"
1 - safety bolt; 2 - metal tube; 3 - capsule with H2SO4; 4 - wadding with Chlorate and Shugar; 5 - powder; 6 - body; 7 - dee; 8 - powder charge; 9 - plumbum tube; 10 - zinc cylinder; 11-pin, 12-safety cap, 13 - float
In document about developing mines, whic dated 24/07/1847 talks next (about Jacobi experiments with sea mines): "pyrophoric mines,presented in 1844..." But in the same moment in book about developing sea mines in Russian Fleet I found this footnote:
"Blowing up of Nobel mines produces of H2SO4+Chlorate and Shugar. Chlorate and Shugar was in glass tube, which destroied when vessel contacted with mine. This device improved by Jacobi and first Nobel variant and didn`t remain anything from first Nobel idea"!!!!:tinysmile_fatgrin_t
And in another book I found those nice pictures - http://wunderwaffe.narod.ru/WeaponBook/MO_05/chap03.html with Nobel mines. As you see, on the third picture Nobel mine, but looks like Jacobi mine
Unfortunatly I think it was politic of "own inventors"
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Bellifortis
Well-Known Member
Thank you very much Ivan for your most informed answers meanwhile. I have another question : How was the Mercury used ?
Regards,
bellifortis.
Regards,
bellifortis.
When I speak Mercury I mean only liquid metal Mercury, not any explosive with Mercury or some another combination with Mercury. Because Mercury Fulminate is Mercury Fulminate
Yes-yes, I agree with your notes about "fougases" and "mines". Sorry, if you were confused, but whet I wote "fougase" I mean only like land-mine. Sea or tiver is another mine and if what - I`ll write what exactly I mean, because I know about thist synonyms. And if it stone fougase I`ll write what exactly it is.
I think Rain`s fuse wasn`t first, because Jacobi or Nobel was first. It was or Jacobi or Nobel. Sorry, but I`m not very big specialist in sea mine and can`t tell you exactly about difference between Nobel and Jacobi sea pyro mines. I`ll check it!
I heared a lot of times, that Jacobi found this combination - H2SO4+Chlorate/Shugar igniter, but really could be Nobel made it first. Could be and this - Jacobi was Russian engineer, but Nobel not and in country was politic "own inventors". I`ll try to check it!
ivan.
Mercury used like electrical contactor between two contacts. Were a lot of different combinations. Sometimes Mercury was in glass tube, which crashed by vessel when it bited mine. Sometimes tubes chashed tube metall balls. Mercury was very popular and used in Russian contactor for land-mine during WWI.
Ivan.
Bellifortis
Well-Known Member
Attached are 2 fotos, one from Barnes (1869) with nice drawings of the "Chemical Primer" and Rains "Sensitive Primer" (even by modern standards for AP mine fuzes, this was very sensitive, needing only 7 pounds of pressure for ignition). Barnes states, that the US chemical primer was a direct adoption of the russian Jacobi design. The other foto is from Charles H.Jones very nice book, the Best I have seen on civil war fuzes. Here it is stated that the chemical primer was the one originally used, before the Rains primer. Now we have arrived at a date of around 1840 for the H2SO4/KCLO3-Shugar ignition system for sea-and land-mines. Probably I.Nobels idea. Does anybody here ever read about an employment of this system before 1840 ?
Bellifortis.
Bellifortis.
Attachments
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Bellifortis
Well-Known Member
Some time ago I had the rare opportunity to examine original 19th century black powder from one of the foremost european powder mills, that was established in the middle of the 18th century. I think that nobody here has ever had the chance to see something like this, so I want to share the pictures with you. The attached fotos show navy- shell-bursting-charge-powder-grains (the smaller ones) and sea-mine-powder (the 3 large grains) produced around 1900. The scale is metric. I have been studying and using black powder for about 30 years and thought that I knew all its intricacies. But, I first was baffled by the large sized powder-grains for the sea-mines. Normally I thought, that the finer the grains, the faster the powder burns (like powder for muzzle loading rifles). For a sea-mine to work, the powder had to be extremely fast burning. It took me some time to understand, why such extremely large grains were used. The 19th century seamine foto is not mine, I copied it from a sales-offer from fleabay some years ago. This is the mine the powder was used in and compares with those of Sevastopol and the US-civil war aera.
enjoy,
Bellifortis.
enjoy,
Bellifortis.
Attachments
Bellifortis
Well-Known Member
Hi,
while searching for some old german books on Gallica/BNF , I found the following http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k96574021.r=Les Torpilles , 1880?rk=64378;0 very nice french book "Les Torpilles", which covers the technology of Mines and Torpedos in the second half of the 19th century. All the drawings of "Barnes"book are contained, but in a much better quality and resolution plus some more from german, austrian, italian and other sources. The quality of the scans at BNF are much better than Google scans, with a much higher resolution. Barnes book is meanwhile online at Archive.org , but as I said, the drawings in the french book are much, much better and larger, more detailed. I do not know if the author H.De Sarrepont used Barnes book as a source or if both of them used some other published source. I do not speak French, but it is really worth to look at this book, even if you don't speak the language. There is so much information you can glean from it and its free to download.
Enjoy,
Bellifortis.
while searching for some old german books on Gallica/BNF , I found the following http://gallica.bnf.fr/ark:/12148/bpt6k96574021.r=Les Torpilles , 1880?rk=64378;0 very nice french book "Les Torpilles", which covers the technology of Mines and Torpedos in the second half of the 19th century. All the drawings of "Barnes"book are contained, but in a much better quality and resolution plus some more from german, austrian, italian and other sources. The quality of the scans at BNF are much better than Google scans, with a much higher resolution. Barnes book is meanwhile online at Archive.org , but as I said, the drawings in the french book are much, much better and larger, more detailed. I do not know if the author H.De Sarrepont used Barnes book as a source or if both of them used some other published source. I do not speak French, but it is really worth to look at this book, even if you don't speak the language. There is so much information you can glean from it and its free to download.
Enjoy,
Bellifortis.
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Bellifortis
Well-Known Member
Hallo,
the historical development of mines is one of my special interests. But, I find it really difficult to get info on the developments before about 1929. Recently I found a very nice swiss book, in german language, on www.e-rara.ch Here you can access, free of charges, a multitude of very rare, old publications in german, french and english language. In the 1911 swiss "explosive engineer"(Pionier)-book the technology of that time (turn of the century) is very well described. Attached are 2 pictures from that book. The first shows a very early AT-Mine, as used by the germans in WW1. Thats the Best description of this very early AT-Mine that I have found up till now. A strong metal-spring holds up the converted artillery-shell. The second is a picture of a chemical mine fuze "Detonateur Jacobi". This already is quite an improvement on early US-civil war "Jacobi"-Fuze construction. The outer lead-tube contains 2 glass tubes, one with sugar/chlorate, the other with sulphuric acid and the free space is filled up with loose NC. As mentioned in US records, the "Jacobi"-fuze predates the "Rains"-fuze. These early mine-fuze constructions were used as well in land-mines and sea.mines.
the historical development of mines is one of my special interests. But, I find it really difficult to get info on the developments before about 1929. Recently I found a very nice swiss book, in german language, on www.e-rara.ch Here you can access, free of charges, a multitude of very rare, old publications in german, french and english language. In the 1911 swiss "explosive engineer"(Pionier)-book the technology of that time (turn of the century) is very well described. Attached are 2 pictures from that book. The first shows a very early AT-Mine, as used by the germans in WW1. Thats the Best description of this very early AT-Mine that I have found up till now. A strong metal-spring holds up the converted artillery-shell. The second is a picture of a chemical mine fuze "Detonateur Jacobi". This already is quite an improvement on early US-civil war "Jacobi"-Fuze construction. The outer lead-tube contains 2 glass tubes, one with sugar/chlorate, the other with sulphuric acid and the free space is filled up with loose NC. As mentioned in US records, the "Jacobi"-fuze predates the "Rains"-fuze. These early mine-fuze constructions were used as well in land-mines and sea.mines.
Attachments
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