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Katyn

Quatermass said:
If anybody wants a good primer on Stalin and WW2 I'd recommend the BBC TV series and book 'World War II: Behind Closed Doors' by Laurence Rees.

Theres a large section on Katyn massacre and the allies reaction, or lack of it, to the crime.

I'd still like to see Falcons statistics for deaths re Nazi German/Stalinist Soviet Union.
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What about the 7 Million deaths at the hands of Stalin in the famine created in the Ukraine in 1932 - 1933. That is just one example. Not to mention the countless other killings of anyone who opposed him, which official estimates of are probably lower than what actually happened.

As for "ignored", everyone knows who Hitler was, and about gas chambers, concentration camps etc. However most average members of the public would probably have no idea who Stalin was, let alone the killings committed on his orders. If you asked the average person if they knew about Katyn, you would get a blank look. There is also the many other genocides committed in the name of communism in other countries that are seldom mentioned compared to the Nazi Holocaust.
 
Falcon said:
What about the 7 Million deaths at the hands of Stalin in the famine created in the Ukraine in 1932 - 1933. That is just one example. Not to mention the countless other killings of anyone who opposed him, which official estimates of are probably lower than what actually happened.

As for "ignored", everyone knows who Hitler was, and about gas chambers, concentration camps etc. However most average members of the public would probably have no idea who Stalin was, let alone the killings committed on his orders. If you asked the average person if they knew about Katyn, you would get a blank look. There is also the many other genocides committed in the name of communism in other countries that are seldom mentioned compared to the Nazi Holocaust.
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you makes good points Falcon.

However i believe that war crimes should not be based on numbers for their importance or their 'horror ranking'.
That tends to turns individual deaths into mere statistics,something that Stalin was very good at.

(I think recent studies conducted in the 1990's using NKVD records point to around 30 million murdered under Stalin.)

Its down to education and the fact some people are not interested.
Alot of young people couldnt care less about these issues as it doesnt or they feel it doesnt affect them directly.
They are of a diffrent generation.

Its important to teach children of the evils of Fascism, regardless if its about German nazi fascism,Soviet fascism,or current modern day fascism or who killed more.

Its all about trying to prevent it happening again.
 
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That is so true, most of my generation don't give a damn about history.

No one my age has ever been able to understand why I wanted to collect old shell cases. I don't even bother telling anyone about it these days.
 
Falcon said:
What about the 7 Million deaths at the hands of Stalin in the famine created in the Ukraine in 1932 - 1933. That is just one example. Not to mention the countless other killings of anyone who opposed him, which official estimates of are probably lower than what actually happened.

As for "ignored", everyone knows who Hitler was, and about gas chambers, concentration camps etc. However most average members of the public would probably have no idea who Stalin was, let alone the killings committed on his orders. If you asked the average person if they knew about Katyn, you would get a blank look. There is also the many other genocides committed in the name of communism in other countries that are seldom mentioned compared to the Nazi Holocaust.
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Nazi war crimes deaths approx 25+ million. (includes Jews 4.5M+, Russian POWs 3M+, Russian civilians 17M)
Russian war crime deaths 4+ million.

Stalin's regime (1924-55) 20+ million (famine, gulags, terror etc).

As the Nazis started the war you could argue the 42 million death in the European war can be blamed on Hitler.

Ignored is not the same as unaware. I doubt that the 'average public' under the age of 30 knows much about Nazi Germany either. If we take your Katyn example ask that same member of the public about Oradour-sur-Glane or Treblinka and see that same blank look.
 
Falcon said:
That is so true, most of my generation don't give a damn about history.

No one my age has ever been able to understand why I wanted to collect old shell cases. I don't even bother telling anyone about it these days.
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I don't know how old you are or when you left school but I'm 30 now, I learnt very little about WW1 and 2 at school. Touching slightly on nazi germany, but not a lot. I have spoken to kids doing their GCSEs and the majority have had no input on the world wars. Unfortunatly, as time goes on, less and less will be taught on this subject and what is, will be basic points. I believe we now live in a society that finds it almost insulting to talk about any warfare, like they think it will all go away if we pretend these things don't happen. I, like you and probably most people on this site, have a special interest in history that many others don't care about, and we all have to go out of our way to learn subjects, but thanks to the internet, so much information can be passed on to those who think it very important to know what happened in these times.

Makes me a bit sad to think that when my kids grow up, they probably wouldn't even know that the first world war happened!
 
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I'm 18, I left school in 2007. We did do WW1 and WW2 in history, but not in great depth as we only looked at them for a few weeks.

I know what you mean about society finding it insulting to talk about warfare. I was using some free time up once by looking at a website on Lee Enfield rifles, and the busybody teacher told me that it was "not appropriate for school as it promotes violence".
 
Falcon,

My friend, you have that ALL over the US. Nobody will talk about the WARS and if they do they barley touch them then tell little lies about what WE did to the other enemies aginst us. This is especially true when you talk about WWII. We fire bombed Dresden, we fire bombed the the poor in tokyo. Then on to Korea. Nothing is even spoke of in Korea. Then you get to Vietnam. Here is where it gets really nasty. You have My Lai massacure (which Lt Calley, that SOB) did us in after that) TET (we destroyed the Imperial C). We were in the way of the poor PAVN from uniting their two countries. But everybody knows that Vietnam was a family affair. All communist nations provided some sort of help to the North and VC. The you have the likes of Hanoi Jane Commie extroidinare Fonda, who has never apoligized for herself going to Hanoi even in her biography she never stated that she was sorry for what she did and what she did was make torture more severe on the POWs. We never lost on the battlefield, ever. But just like what General Giap stated to Col. Harry Sumners, It didn't make any difference. They were determined to unite North and South no matter what. They even lost as many 1 million to even rumors from the North that the number maybe even closer to 2 milion men.

What we really should of done is agree with Ho Chi Mihn when he asked in the 1950's to then President Eisenhower, that His country to be a colony of the USA colony of the US just like the Phillippines were. Eisenhower said "NO". It would of changed world history if he had said OK with certain specifications placed on the North. We probably wouldn't have lost almost 60,000 men/boys. But you cannot cannot live and cozy up with a Communist state. They lie, and they cheat and when ever they went to Paris, they wanted something in return and always did just the opposite and Johnson and Kissinger were the fools for it.

Falcon and others, by now it should be clear to all that Vietnam was and still is my passion, especially for the Covert world and ALL munitions used then, including grenades, explosive and primitive Booby-Traps and weaponery including aircraft, and helicopters and guns. I do however need to study up on the B-52.

I want to apoligize about this long winded response to the situation of wars not being taught in schools. Please forgive me to many more facts on Vietnam, then the other wars.

Again, please for give me guys.

V40
Mark
 
lack of knowledge

Its not only youngsters who dont seem to know about attrocities, who knows that the British invented the concentration camp for the Boers in which many died form lack of food and illness? That the American Indians on reservations were given infected blankets for the winter to reduce their numbers?, that recently the Isralies supplied one African tribe munitions that were used to try and genocidally eradicate their enemies? The Japanese medical experiments that provided the Allies with lots of information on germ warefare FOC at the end of WW2? I'm could go on but wont. 2pr
 
I have to disagree strongly with the statement that children are not taught about the ist or second world war.

Children are taught it in the UK as part of their history sylabus,to a greater or lesser degree.
They are especially taught about the Holocaust,and concentration camps.
Many schools in the UK have visited extermination camps.
I know because three of my children have been taught it.

My point is that some education seems to be bias towards Nazi history,and there should be more attention to the many victims instead of the perpertrators.


also, we shouldnt get bogged down with numbers and whose worse than the other.
One life lost is just as awfull as many lives lost

-we must not turn it into a debate about numbers,this only sanitisers war.

We can list , discuss and disagree about numbers till were blue in the face.

Its about general awareness of peoples struggles and oppressors actions against them.

I'd like to see more awareness among adults AND young adults,of the atrocities carried out by all sides.

I'm very pleased the film Katyn has been made,it highlights a part of history that hasnt had much attention.

I just hope the film isnt like an all action block buster,that would really piss me off.
Anyway interesting thread.

regards
 
Falcon said:
I'm 18, I left school in 2007. We did do WW1 and WW2 in history, but not in great depth as we only looked at them for a few weeks.

I know what you mean about society finding it insulting to talk about warfare. I was using some free time up once by looking at a website on Lee Enfield rifles, and the busybody teacher told me that it was "not appropriate for school as it promotes violence".
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Classic! I don't agree with modern schooling. No discipline, teachers being in fear of their students!!!!! What the F***!
Crazy!
 
I have just got hold of the film Katyn but haven't watched it yet. I'll try next week when the wife falls asleep. (She will only watch soaps)
 
pointblank0 said:
I have just got hold of the film Katyn but haven't watched it yet. I'll try next week when the wife falls asleep. (She will only watch soaps)
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yeah mines the same,soaps are really shite!

do us a favour mate,will you review it here please?

warm regards
doug
 
Falcon,
do you see that you are getting a great start in world history here. Allot of guys here know their stuff really well and would maybe set down around one day an answer your questions or even here on the website. Educate yourself in a period of world history and stick to it. Don't vere off if you can. Just some friendly advice.

Mark
 
Hi all,
For those interested in finding out more, read `Katyn massacre' by Louis Fitzgibbon. I believe it was first published in 1971. I have a Corgi reprint dated 1979 (ISBN? 0 552 10455 8). Another book, sad but excellent is `The scourge of the swastika' by Lord Russell of Liverpool, first published in 1954. I have a Corgi reprint dated 1977 (ISBN? 0 552 10300 4). I first read it as a teenager and it made me angry to think that people will do such things to other people. They should be required reading for teachers of history and their content should never be forgotten.
Happy new year to you all.
Matthew
 
AMMOTECHXT said:
Hi all,
For those interested in finding out more, read `Katyn massacre' by Louis Fitzgibbon. I believe it was first published in 1971. I have a Corgi reprint dated 1979 (ISBN? 0 552 10455 8). Another book, sad but excellent is `The scourge of the swastika' by Lord Russell of Liverpool, first published in 1954. I have a Corgi reprint dated 1977 (ISBN? 0 552 10300 4). I first read it as a teenager and it made me angry to think that people will do such things to other people. They should be required reading for teachers of history and their content should never be forgotten.
Happy new year to you all.
Matthew
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interesting mate thanks alot.
is there any chance of scanning the odd page of interest,just to give some of us an idea of the hardships invovled?
Could you scan the covers as well?
that would be great.

thanks alot

doug
aka 18pounder
 
18pounder said:
interesting mate thanks alot.
is there any chance of scanning the odd page of interest,just to give some of us an idea of the hardships invovled?
Could you scan the covers as well?
that would be great.

thanks alot

doug
aka 18pounder
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Doug,
I would be happy to send you the book, if you are interested PM me.
Matthew
 
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