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Inert large bore ds collection

I finally learned the correct way to post pictures so I figured I would ad a pic of the various variants of the US 120MM M865 TPCSDS-T projectiles in my collection which started off as a direct copy of Rheinmetall's DM38 TPCSDS-T round. :)

Jason


Projectile on the left is the US XM866 TPFSDS-T which was a target practice copy of Rheinmetall's tactical DM13 / then the German DM38 / Then US M865 MODS
IMG_2259.jpg


Rheinmetall's DM38 TPCSDS-T
IMG_2262.jpg
 
Nice projectiles!
Regarding the US XM866 TPFSDS-T, is the penetrator solid or of multi piece construction?
Dave.
 
Projectile on the left is the US XM866 TPFSDS-T which was a target practice copy of Rheinmetall's tactical DM13 / then the German DM38 / Then US M865 MODS
View attachment 88317


Jason,

So the 3 projectiles to the right in your picture are variations/different models of the US M865?

Another great set of projectiles, thanks for posting them!

Brian
 
Dave, the XM866 TPFSDS-T projectile consists of a 3 piece sabot, a solid steel one piece sub-projectile dart, fin assembly and tracer. It appears to be a TP copy of the Rheinmetall DM13 APFSDS-T with the exception of being solid steel vs the DM13's with its tungsten core. The US also made a tactical APFSDS-T at the same general time (1983), the XM827 APFSDS which appears to be a direct copy of the DM13 also except it was fitted with a DU core. The XM827 and XM866 were both interim rounds never adopted but used while the US M829 was under development. From what I can tell, the DM13 started it all. Germany made it as the first 120MM DS round to be fired from its new tank gun also made by Rheinmetall. The US uses this gun system in its M1A1 and M1A2 Abrams where it is designated the M256. I am not sure what Germany designated the gun system on their end.

Brian, yes, the 3 projectiles to the right are US made M865's. The projectile, 3rd from the right is an experimental M865 that was never adopted. There is also 4th MOD M865 not shown in the above photo.

Jason
 
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APFSDS, I'm just curious as to how many bolts were used to secure the bolt-on-cover (BOC) of the DM 38 and early M865? Is it two or three per petal?
 
Eggburt, early M865 and DM38 TPCSDS-T projectiles utilize 6 bolts (2 per sabot petal) to secure the BOC to the CCC body. The M865 in the US has gone threw at least 4 design changes over the years and only the very 1st copy of the DM38 used these bolts. Later modifications eliminated them completely. I am not sure if all of the design changes to the M865 in the US were mirrored on the German side with the original DM38.

Jason
 
Hi Jason,

OK. Two then. I've been trying to collect data on the US development of the M865 for an entry to our data on the round. (I work for what was Jane's.) I've found quite a lot, this technical report '120 mm TPCSDS-T M865 (E3) Rework Report (Pop-Rivet Design) - Picatinny Arsenal (ADA411174)(2002)' was quite helpful with regards to the early use of the BOC and GOC, though it doesn't go into when the GOC returned, or when the LKL stabilising cone was replaced with the slotted cone. I does however cover the revised projectile/case interfacing problem and fixes which is quite helpful. I've still got to collate all data on the interim models, the M865E1, E2 and E3. The E2 being converted M829 rounds and the E3 the pop rivet design as far as I can tell. I'll probably just put together as much as I can then ask ATK/GD-OTS for their comments.

Neil
 
Neil, I just submitted an article to be published in the IAA (International Ammunition Association) Journal titled, THE DEVELOPMENTAL TIMELINE OF US 120MM APFSDS, TPFSDS and TPCSDS TANK FIRED AMMUNITION. I believe it is scheduled to be run in the next issue. In that article I discuss a lot of what you mentioned. In my collection, I have 4 different modifications of adopted for use, M865 rounds and one experimental M865 design not adopted. I did my best to detail the dates each modification takes place based on date codes listed on the projectiles. You mentioned the fact that some of the E2 were being converted to tactical use M829 rounds. While I have heard a little about that, I have heard more about surplus M829 APFSDS-T rounds being cannibalized to make M865 rounds. I think they use the CCC and propellant from the M829 to help save costs in the production of the M865?

Jason
 
Jason, I'll have to look out for the article. Sorry, my text wasn't too clear. As far as I can tell, the M865E2 is the version of the round using cannibalised M829, their CCC, stubcases and primers (M129). The M865E3 seems to be the snap-joint design. I do not know what changes were made to create the M865E1, but it may be the version in which the stabiliser was changed from the LKL to the slotted cone. This seems to have occurred in the late 1980s, early 1990s. It could also be the version which uses the six and not the nine-hole LKL? Neil
 
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Neil,

When you can, send me your e-mail address. I want to send you a timeline photo that I took of the M865 development that will be used in my paper that may be of help? I have a few M865 sub-projectiles fitted with both the ported and slotted LKL stabilizers but have never seen a ported stabilizer with 6 ports. All of the specimens that I have seen contain 9 ports. Now I have to be on the look out for a 6 port specimen :)


Jason
jabels@mindspring.com
 
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