FLaK 41 high altitude

[Nabob]

@rickwedlock
No the Flak 18 used different HE projectiles (the one on the left in greifs last post) than Flak 41 (middle one). I do not recall reading that it was even tried.
@greif
I am sure that you did not want to go into kwk 43 details in a flak 41 thread but for the sake of other fellow members I will expand your answer.
The KwK 43 used Flak 41 projectiles. But only if the barrels had 500 or less shots (more exact wear equal to 500 nominal shots, US arty uses the term tubestrength).
Please see the HDv 119/329 for reference.
Bob

 

[earni74]

Hi Grief and Rick, it shows in my book as FLaK41 and KwK43, the book is (FL.a.K Patronen und Geschosse) by W.D.de Hek, is this a miss print !

 

[rickwedlock]

thanks for the reply bob but i don't see how you can fit a flak 41 projectile into a kwk43 barrel chamber as the upper drive band is much higher on the kwk43 and if my thinking is correct then a flak 41 upper drive band wouldn't be in contact with the rifling on the barrel, surely they would need to have the same spacing if not the same width. unless the middle pic in griefs post isn't the flak 41 round.
i was also told that the flak 18 had a boat tail to give it better aerodynamics but the one in griefs post is cylindrical. i'm getting confused by it all and unfortunately i don't know enough to give any answer other than what i can see with my own eyes and what others had told me. it would be nice to get to the bottom of this puzzle

 

[rickwedlock]

i put the two rounds side by side in a flak 18 case to show the difference in the spacing of the drive bands.

 

[Nabob]

You have embarked on a journey down a rabbit hole
First it is best to read some documents. The best source of information I have found are original documents and manuals. Since original blueprints are hard to come by, the manuals are the second best source.
For Flak 41 you want to read the L.Dv. 4402/8 Die Munition der Flakartillerie Teil 8 Munition der 8,8 cm Flak 41 (found here: http://michaelhiske.de/Wehrmacht/Luftwaffe/Luftwaffendienstvorschriften/StartSeite.htm)
I have not found KwK 43 ammunition manual, but the range tables give the used ammunition (as seen in my previous post).

Not all what you see in todays books is flawless. I myself have made some sins of this kind .
Some of the information you can read is development stuff, most interesting but rarely found. It is sometimes hard to distinguish between developments and real fielded ammo in modern books. I am sure that there were boat tailed HE rounds tried for the Flak 36. Waffen Revue has some good articles on this topic.
A boat tailed HEAT round was certainly used.

In cased ammunition the driving band is not in contact with the rifling when the round is chambered. There is a certain distance. With wear the beginning of the rifling is moving forward in the barrel. A special gouge is sometimes used to measure it. Here is the important part of 500 rounds fired mentioned in the KwK 43 manual. The rounds band always hits the rifling with a certain speed. In a worn barrel the distance to the rifling would be so big, that the round would be mowing quite fast, producing large stress and excessive wear of the barrel.

Bob

 

[greif]

I agree with Nabob. In the range table Hdv 119/329 the cartridge with the Flak 41 shell is referred to as 8,8 cm Sprgr Patr KwK 43. The range table shows an image of this cartridge and also of the one with the wider driving bands, which is called 8,8 cm Sprgr Patr 43 Kwk 43. To distinguish the shell with the narrow driving bands from the one with the wider driving bands, the Flak 41 shell was marked with 4 white square dots just above the upper driving band (see note p) equally divided over the circumference of the shell body. The other shells with narrow bands which were used, the Pzgr 39/1, the Pzgr 39/1 Al and the Gr Patr 39 Hl (HEAT) were marked in the same manner.

 

[rickwedlock]

bob i have indeed found myself in a rabbit hole but it started with a simple idea. go on bocn and ask one of the experts to enlighten me. however i'm now more confused than i was before. i will put the round back in the kwk 43 case and act like it never happened

 

[Nabob]

Do not be troubled, after many years of studying ammunition I still have more questions than answers.
It is here at BOCN where I often look for the answers. Thanks to all the awesome members I usually find them.

Do not be afraid to ask again, there is nothing bad about it. We will always try to help

Bob

 

[rickwedlock]

thanks bob and co for all your help. until a few days ago i'd never heard of a flak 41 and i'm now a little wiser on the subject of german ammo. i will endeavour to find a flak 41 case, when i do i'll put up some pics.