FFE Certificate

[exat808]

Take the point re abuse. Not sure where we can go with it? To develop a system that could be assured to be 100% transparent where each certificate is wholly relevant to the package or article in which is contained is never going to happen. So back to the collectors and others in the civilian sector - what do you require from an FFE system and how would you translate that into a workable system?

 

[Darkman]

Lack of common sense by Australian authorities

Hi Iain,

I read your nightmare story from a couple of years back with much nervousness! I am also an ordnance collector from Australia and attended Beltring for the first time this year.
WOW Amazing! I actually felt sick because of all the stuff there that I would have liked to have bought but knew I could not bring back or get through customs. I did buy a few things but more about them later.

I have had similar experiences with Australian Police and Customs after importing inert ordnance, but not as much trouble as you. I have had luck finally getting the items released in several cases, (after applying for the police permit, obtaining customs ministerial approval and being told off as a naughty boy) but have also had several nice things destroyed.

Basically the police and customs (as well as Australia Post) treat all ordnance (whether live or inert) as weapons of war and are prohibited imports. They just don't differentiate between obviously empty and inert old items or new live stuff loaded with HE. If you read the prohibited items list it even includes trench art! Talk about a nanny mentality. They have completely lost the plot. Things that were OK when I was a kid - a folding pocket knife - is on the list as a prohibited weapon. They just don't care that there are legitimate collectors of inert shells etc. When I say 'obviously empty and inert' that assumes some degree of common sense and an ability to see. The story they have told me is that they don't have the expertise to determine if something is inert or not (some things are obvious and common sense) so they sieze and section everything. Then they get army ordnance to collect it. The army doesn't really care about collectors either and I had one item (a mint WW1 fuse completely disassembled) destroyed immediately by mistake.

Now I am very much more careful when I buy stuff on the internet. Firstly I don't buy high priced stuff (you have to be prepared to lose it) and secondly I ask the seller to put a very vague (but basically truthfull) description on the customs declaration. Over the last couple of years I have had good luck with small items such as fuses arriving OK from the UK via regular airmail (x-rayed) and things such as shell cases by surface mail (usually not x-rayed.) Touch wood.

Back to Beltring this year. I bought 2 x complete WW1 18 pounder shrapnel rounds and another unfired (never filled) No. 80 fuse. I only wanted the projectiles (as these are getting very hard to obtain in Australia nowadays) but had to buy the complete shells. (Fair enough.) One projectile was unfired and these are as rare as in Oz now. The unfired projectile round and the unused fuse I bought from a friendly chap called Steve who had a lot of nice ordnance for sale. He said another Australian had been buying up a lot of ordnance and was mentioning obtaining permits. When I told him how difficult and how much trouble you had to go to he wished me luck. (I wonder how the other Aussie went wa it you?)

The 2 x 18 pndr shell cases and 3 x No. 80 fuses I just packaged up and posted to myself by surface mail. (4 separate packages as there is a 2kg limit by Royal mail for either surface mail or air mail.) Funnily enough one case and 2 fuses arrived recently by airmail! (I have had this before - you pay for surface and they are sent by airmail.) Anyway the projectiles are heavy at about 3kg each - this would have cost 54 pounds each by Parcel Force (?) at the post office. I found out later I can get cheaper for both by a private courier.

Because of the excessive postage cost I wanted to put the projectiles in my checked luggage and just not declare them but my partner did not want to take the risk. She was adamant. All bagage is x-rayed, but I could have disguised the shape a little with extra metal strips, but this would go against you if detected. I reckon there would have been a 90% chance of getting away with it, but the ramifications of getting caught with the 10% risk (something like what you have gone through Iain) didn't bear thinking about.

Anyhow, I left the projectiles with a relative at Rye in East Sussex and have now started the approval process since arriving back in Australia. I have obtained the B709B form (Application to possess a prohibited Weapon) from Victorian Police Firearms & Licensing. This I sent off on Friday (complete with photos showing they are empty and declaring them totally inert) to obtain permission to actually possess the 'dangerous' empty 18 Pnder sharapnel shell projectiles.

After obtaining permission from the cops then you send off form B710 to the Federal Customs Minister to obtain permission to actually import the dangerous weapons. Last time I did this (after import) the whole process took over 3 months before I finally got permision and had to travel down to Melbourne (110km) to pick up the fuse personally from Customs near Tullamarine airport.

But here is the bit I am nervous about - last time in the approval letter I got back from the Minister's office it stated that I should have got permission BEFORE I imported the goods. The letter implied it would be a straight-forward approval process if I had obtained permission prior to import. This is what I'm doing this time - I thought I was doing the right and responsible thing. But after reading of your troubles and how harshly you were treated by idiots with no common sense, now I am not so sure. If they ask me to obtain a FFE certificate I am stuffed.

I think I will hide my ordnance collection just in case I get a visit from the federal police and they confiscate the lot! I'm not actually sure what licence or permission you have to have to collect inert ordnance these days, but you probably have to have something going by all the rubbish they go on with. Absolutely stupid. I started collecting ordnance by picking up 50 cal and 20mm cannon shells from a WW2 aircraft gunnery range as a kid. No-one cared 2 hoots in those days.

I will post an update to tell how I get on.

Regards,
Graeme Davenport
Ballarat, Vic

 

[ozziammo]

Importing into Australia

Guys in Oz,

As a fellow historian who has imported inert ordnance into Australia for 25years I have watched the decline of our freedom to do so.

As of around February this year Aust. Customs & Border Security has rehashed their import policy to include what is called "Inert & Inoperability Standard"

Basically ACS.BP is requiring all projectiles above .50 cal to be sectioned by at least one quarter, this includes all fuses & primers. Primers must be removed from cart cases.
Cart cases up to .50 cal must have a 10mm hole drilled in them at least 1/3rd up from the base, all other cart cases must have a 15mm hole drilled 1/3rd up from the base. All items must be free from any dangerous residue or substance. Any other projectiles that have a void or cavity must be sectioned by at least a quarter.

Only solid shot projectiles do not have to be sectioned!

Please inquire for yourself before importing!

As historians/collectors we must bombard the Minister for Customs & Manager for Border Protection with letters of disagreeance to these draconian policies, stating common sense arguments against sectioning. Try to suggest other ways that their concerns can be satisfied:eg licensing, use of digital technology to photograph your items thoroughly before importation, membership to recognized collector organizations (similar to Firearm collecting).

There was no consultation with any of us as major stakeholders in the formulation of these policies, and none of the other large countries such as UK, Holland, USA require such barbaric measures to satisfy their security & community safety concerns.

This policy as it stands will see the end of any inert items of ordnance coming into Australia, who will cut up items for you at Beltring? Who would want to destroy history like that anyway? Who has the capacity to be able to carryout sectioning of items & what would be the extra cost?

We need to spread the word in Australian collecting circles to combat this unjust & unnecessary policy.

It scares me to to think what is next!

Good luck at Beltring.

Regards Ozzi.

 

[ozziammo]

More

There are some basic principals need to be adhered to when importing.

1) strip all components down to their smallest so that all internal surfaces can be seen without further dismantling by EOD staff. (if in doubt-slab it out), old EOD slogan, slab being PE.
2) comprehensively photograph the exact items you are being sent so that you know what & how it is being sent.
3) apply for your import permits before you import (even if you don't know exactly what you might buy overseas).
4) make sure you get some reassurance (letter) from the supplier that the items are FFE (only proof that the items were checked before being sent).
5) don't trust word of mouth, make sure you have written documentation from all parties, Police, Customs Officials & your supplier!

This is some of the stuff I have learned over the years, not that it will help much with this latest setback in Customs policy.

Ozzi.

 

[panther1]

Hi all

It is truly horrifying to read about the crap Customs is actually demanding, but before I flew over to England, read Beltring, this year I emailed the Federal Customs people for a clear and concise list if requirements for the import of ordnance.
here is the reply I received on the 20th May 2010.

HI Iain

Sorry for the late reply.

Large calibre ammunition is controlled under Schedule 2 of the Customs (Prohibited Imports) Regulations 1956. All of the pictured and listed items will require permission to import from the Minister for Home Affairs (or his delegate) through this office.

Customs and Border Protection currently require certain items of warfare to be rendered permanently inoperable before permission to import can be considered.

Ammunition that has a hollow projectile must have a 1mm hole drilled through the body of the projectile to render the item permanently inoperable.

Ammunition with a solid projectile must be inert, no drilling is required.

Casings that have not been fired must have the primer removed by drilling.

The items that must be rendered permanently inoperable must be done so before import permission can be approved and prior to the importation of the goods into Australia.


Ok this is what I received, as you can see there is no mention of quarter sectioning.

As I have a pile of ordnance in the UK I am going to start the process and see what the permit from the Minister says, if there is no mention of sectioning then I will import my ammo, if it does say anything about sectioning then it will stay in the UK until I can get a "sensible ruling, if that is possible"

Iain

 

[dano1917]

Hi
I did have a lawyer, that cost me a lot, but the prosecution had the Magistrate in their pocket from the start. It was like a bad american show. I could appeal but it would cost too much money. I have to go to court to try get my firearm license, that is going to cost a arm and a leg as it is. I wish my lawyer could get into them, but law over here still consists of gentlemen talking to each other in a civilised way, except Magistrates can insult and humiliate with impunity.
To get stuff imported into Australia I have to have an FFE for each bit ifordnance, it doesn't have to be Defence Force personnel, just a recognised expert in the field of explosives and ammunition.
I certainly learned an expensive lesson.
The reason I started this discussion I was hoping to find an expert among the people who work in UXO, aren't there a couple of guys who do that?

Iain

No offense meant, but if you were in the right even a lawyer fresh out of law school, even a public defender should have been able to rip the prosecution a new one. I guess living in the US things are easier as I have stuff sent in from overseas all the time with nary a problem. Hell, I was even paid a visit from Homeland Security on one occasion, I showed them that my stuff was INERT, put on a pot of coffee and we all had a laugh about it. I can't even fathom the trouble you Austrailians have with the ordnance game. I feel bad enough not living in Europe where I could get the stuff I get cheaper........Dano

 

[LCplCombat]

Ammunition that has a hollow projectile must have a 1mm hole drilled through the body of the projectile to render the item permanently inoperable.

Ammunition with a solid projectile must be inert, no drilling is required.

Will customs have an expert in every countries ammunition examining each round to see if the Solid Projectile, without a hole drilled in it is in fact just that, and not a round with a Hollow Projectile without a 1mm hole drilled in it.

 

[cliff]

Guys,

I know this is an old subject but I may have some info with regard to obtaining FEE Certs for your collection.

I'm just waiting for the OK to "publish" from the "supplier" of the info and I'll post it here. If anyone would like a "preview" for the info then please PM me. The information I have ONLY pertains to the UK collectors amongst us.

Cliff

 

[Edwardc]

would it be possible to buy stuff there and the ship it by boat home? or are Oz customs extra harsh and that wont work either

 

[cliff]

would it be possible to buy stuff there and the ship it by boat home? or are Oz customs extra harsh and that wont work either

I guess you would have to check with the importing country's authorities as to whether or not an overseas FFE Certificate was valid or not.

Cliff

 

[cliff]

Here is the information I have.

It is supplied by me as is, without warranty and/or guarantee. The company has given me permission to pass this on and welcomes inquiries.

The company is: http://www.ramorauk.com/

and the information given to me is as follows:

"For small items that are clean and straight forward to assess such as the Mills Bomb, the cost would be 35 + VAT per item. This price also includes hand grenades, small anti-personnel mines and small projectiles.

For more complex items such as large land mines the cost would be 60 + VAT per item

For missiles, torpedoes and bombs, the cost would range between 150 -300 + VAT per item.

However, we would advise caution when using postal services as FFE items have been known to shut down sorting offices which could result in a fine to the sender. We would recommend using a courier that accepts the transportation of munitions. [or you can arrange to take it yourself by appointment.]

Hope this is helpful.

Cliff

 

[Darren]

Here is the information I have.

It is supplied by me as is, without warranty and/or guarantee. The company has given me permission to pass this on and welcomes inquiries.

The company is: http://www.ramorauk.com/

and the information given to me is as follows:

"For small items that are clean and straight forward to assess such as the Mills Bomb, the cost would be 35 + VAT per item. This price also includes hand grenades, small anti-personnel mines and small projectiles.

For more complex items such as large land mines the cost would be 60 + VAT per item

For missiles, torpedoes and bombs, the cost would range between 150 -300 + VAT per item.

However, we would advise caution when using postal services as FFE items have been known to shut down sorting offices which could result in a fine to the sender. We would recommend using a courier that accepts the transportation of munitions. [or you can arrange to take it yourself by appointment.]

Hope this is helpful.

Cliff

WOW, they are some hefty prices!

 

[cliff]

I suppose its relative really......

If you equate it to an hourly rate and the minimum charge is an hour (ex-vat) then you got 280 per day; for comparison check out you local main dealer for Ford or Vauxhall and see what they charge ph or even you local plumber.

That's the world we live in......

But say for argument sake you took 3 or 4 stripped items to them the chances are they would still only charge you an hour......

Cliff

 

[LCplCombat]

But what legal status would the certificate have?

 

[exat808]

I think that we have explored this issue before. Currently there is no civilian equivalent of the British military CFFE system as prescribed in JSP482 and I am not aware of any legislation in the pipeline.
A FFE certificate or document of any sort would only be as good as the credentials of the person/organisation that issued it and probably, of more importance to collectors, it would only have any worth if it were recognised and acknowledged by those on the enforcement side.

There are any number of individuals and companies who have the professional credentials and competence that would enable them to produce an FFE certificate. Ultimately at this moment in time it can only be a decision for the individual collector to decide if the financial outlay will be of benefit.

 

[AMMOTECHXT]

I've been scanning The Saleroom site as I often do and this morning found a grenade for sale (on 9th September). Only this one comes with an FFE certificate and disclaimer (very few ammo items are ever advertised with an FFE certificate). I researched the firm mentioned on the paperwork on Microsoft Edge and one of their photos shows the same grenade.

 

[BMG50]

The certificate is only valid as the authorities want it to be or how they see fit the qualification of the person or company is checking it to give such ticket. The ticket although looks good may not be a official ticket they will accept no matter what qualification FFE EXO course you have been on. Your UXO ticket may be good for clearing up mine fields overseas but not viewed as good enough in court, they may call the army in. The army today just blow things up and really have no intrest in ordnance history or value of such items, its a job of HSE and making any UXO incident safe as possible. Such items no matter how safe would still be removed and destroyed for the sake of safety.

Remember each county police authority are a law to themselves, your item may be vailid in one county but another county's have their own ideas, its not consistent up and down the country, this is the same for firearms no matter whats written in law.

Knowing government and police and HSE and its bureaucracy and corruption as our friend from Australia found out, its paper work they would form could easily involve vast piles paperwork for one item plus asking all question just to put you off. The ticket shown if taken to court may not be valid in the eyes of the authorities.

As for checking stuff and buying from dealers who think they are experts i have come across dodgy stuff where the seller expert dealer or UXO would have known better. The question i ask in my head is come on guys you should know better. Best to check yourself and to get a friend to double check. Know your stuff.

As for the company selling the grenade or charging for a ticket good money maker, but as for qualified, qualified by who the company selling the course, the MOD, etc and who is deciding who is qualified in a court of law. Usually they look to plod desk sergeant know all firearms expert who shot a gun back in the old days but now is a explosive expert because he read a book, your knowledge even if you have been a ex MOD UXO clearing this stuff for years means nothing, the authorities are the authorities, they know best. Thats what we are up against especially these days. Keep safe everyone.

 

[AMMOTECHXT]

Points taken. In the UK the Home Office has a big input into how things are done but no expertise themselves. The genral sequence is that Joe Public finds what they suspect to be a piece of ammunition and call the police. Police attend and attempt to establish whether the item poses a danger, however they are generally untrained and, frankly, the subject of ammunition is vast. The officer who attends might be ex military and this can be useful in filtering out things that do not pose a danger. If there is any doubt they ask their control room to call for a military EOD team. Apparently the RAF EOD capability was done away with several years ago, so that leaves the RN and army teams. RN teams traditionally dealt with items found below the high water mark and the army now deals with the rest, though there might be some overlap. EOD teams now have access to a computer database to assist them in identifying the item. This is a bonus for them because they are only taught what is current at the time they go on their courses. However since most of what is found on the UK mainland is ex WW1 and WW2, unless they have read up on such ammo, they will be reliant on the computer. This is why downloads of such documents as DWS Notes, RAOS and Ammunition and Explosives Regulations are important, to help inform the current genration of EOD personnel.

Cases in point: I was a civilian working for Lincs police -

1. I heard about a grenade found in a shed in a nearby village. I went there and was allowed by the police officer to speak with the RAF EOD team leader. The man was a sergeant but had no knowledge of the No 23 grenade. I explained the design of the grenade and he x-rayed it. I then had no further input. I believe he took it to a nearby field and blew it.

2. Another time I heard about some grenades found in a shed in a nearby town. Again I went to see if I could offer some practical advice, however, I was turned away by two firearms officers who were manning a cordon at the scene. I was told that an EOD team had already been tasked to attend the address. It turned out to be a box of 12 x 36M grenades that a former Home Guard Captain had kept in his shed. They were found after his death when his relatives were clearing the house.

3. Grenade found in a house - I unscrewed the base plug from a 36M and determined there was no detonator assembly. I could not unscrew the filling plug but declared the grenade safe to move and store in a police station pending its removal by EOD (what we used to call a D4 collection). These days it is likely that such a find would not be allowed at a police station due to HSE considerations (common sense / experience is not allowed).

4. Mortar bomb found in an attic - I immediately identified it as a Drill 81 mm mortar bomb and therefore inert. I think we left it in the house - we were looking for the body of a baby at the time.

5. I was off duty on my favourite beach, when I found a very large, rust-encrusted shell a short distance below the high water mark. I called the police and explained about my former army role and that I suspected I had found a 5.5 Inch fuzed HE shell. I was phoned by an RN EOD chap and sent him a photo of the shell with my foot in the photo for scale. A police officer was dispatched to confirm what I had found. He confirmed to his control room and EOD were tasked. Meanwhile a team from the coastguard was also tasked. Their job was to anchor a marker close to the shell and to assist with cordoning. An army EOD team turned up a few hours later. The Captain ATO was "on a mission," not wanting to talk, looking annoyed at having to be out on a Friday, and his Number 2 dutifully tagged along carrying what was thought to be enough kit to deal with the shell. The ATO got to work with a spade, digging a hole in the sand, and I and the police officer moved back a few hundred yards. The folowing explosion sounded like not what I was expecting but I could not think why. A few minutes later the Number 2 came fast-walking towards us. He had been sent to fetch more explosives. The first detonation had merely removed about an inch of rust from the shell. The second explosion, when it came, was more as expected. This time I could hear the sound made by jagged metal as it sang through the air. The two army blokes and the coastguard men had hidden behind the nearby dunes. The coastguards reported hearing metal pass over them. I guess the distance was not enough for complete safety. They should all have been further from the shell. Such lessons have to learned and then relearned by others over time.

The use of common sense, goodwill and co-operation do not always coincide. Some in my trade developed a God complex. They thought they knew it all and they looked down on those they thought were not as good as them. Having a God complex does not lend itself to nurturing the next tranche of people who will follow in their footsteps. Ultimately people get fed up and leave before their time and the organisation as a whole suffers. Gaps appear where posts should be fully staffed. At one point a crazy decision was made, in the interests of saving money, to have a moratorium on recruitment. My former trade suffered greatly as a result, both straight away and for years further along. Some of those in charge treated their juniors with disrespect and contempt. Many things were not being done right. Some police officers (very few in my experience) also develop a God complex, especially if they are firearms officers. Those who keep an open mind are best of all.

With regard to FFE action, the only way forward I can suggest is that all organisations that issue FFE certificates be validated to an agreed standard that is approved by the Home Office. The Home Office would then be free to issue one of its Circulars to all UK police forces. The Circular could list all the approved certificate issuers. The certificate issuers would need to include on their certificates that their organisation is approved under Home Office Circular number "X." Then would begin the job of international approval of such standards. We don't seem to be anywhere near that yet.