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BUTTERFLY BOMB - SD2 and M83 ' COLLECTION '
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AKJAXBEACH
Member
I have a very small flea market near my house and most of the sellers clean out garages for a living and also buy stroage units that are being sold because the renter stopped paying the rent. 99% of the items are complete almost worthless junk but also a few treasures if you are willing to dig for them. Items like this butterfly are certainly not just sitting on a table.
Steve
Steve
butterfly
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
Very nice M83 you have there Steve,
May I enquire as the exact mark of fuze you have - it is indeed an anti-disturbance fuze but these came in several marks both T and M designations.
thanks for sharing, I wish I also came across items like this at a flea market, but we all get a little luck now and again, its what keeps us all collecting!!!
regards Kev
AKJAXBEACH
Member
Hi Kev,
I do not see any markings on the fuse or the weapon of any kind.
Any thoughts?
Thanks
Steve
Oh wait I was looking at some of the fuse pictures you posted the markings are on the inside
I have not been able to get the fuse loose. The guy I bought it from said it was off when he first got it but that was 30 years ago
I do not see any markings on the fuse or the weapon of any kind.
Any thoughts?
Thanks
Steve
Oh wait I was looking at some of the fuse pictures you posted the markings are on the inside
I have not been able to get the fuse loose. The guy I bought it from said it was off when he first got it but that was 30 years ago
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butterfly
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
Steve
though you obviously enquired about the safety of this item and the guy assured you that the fuze was off 30 years ago, I have to post the following as a warning to all ordnanace collectors...........if it doesnt disassemble dont purchase it, you cannot assume it to be safe if it doesnt strip down to its component parts.
Kev
butterfly
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
Today I finally managed to get an item that I have long since known about but have never actually seen before.
Many of you will be familiar with the SD2 warning leaflet seen below....
first released in 1941 and again in 1943 it shows two images of the butterfly bomb, one open and one closed. But, take a closer look and you will notice something - a 'perculiar' fuze in the photo showing the SD2 in the open position....
Like many I overlooked this at first, however I uncovered a small drawing whilst doing research and this lead me to think again. So, what is different about this fuze? Well, to all intense and purposes, nothing, in its function; the differences are subtle and easily overlooked. The main differance is that this has four small 'spanner' holes, as opposed to the familiar 'two large ones' in the upper surface. The fuze itself is a Type 41, as you would expect from a photograph which dates back to 1941 (no other type was in use at the time). It appears that this arrangement was very short lived.
For those of you who are eagle-eyed enough the fuze does appear in the official manual produced by the Germans - available for download here http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/downloads.php?do=file&id=263 photos appear in illustration 6. Although this is a 1941 edition of the manual, it does appear (looking at the first page that an earlier edition existed and this was an updated version). I imagine that illustration 6 is part of this original edition - other photos of the 41 fuze and drawing showing the two hole one which we are all familiar.
On closer inspection of the fuze I have, I noticed that it is dated 1940. The wings to which it is attached, and obvioulsy has been for some considerable time are slightly damaged but original paint dated 1943 - I suspect that the fuze may have been recovered much earlier in the war than the wings themselves........but I guess I will never know; it may even be from one of the very first raids?
so here are some photographs, together with a solid brass example that I have had for a number of years now, which I suspect was manufactured during the war for use for recognition purposes.
I would love to know if anyone else has seen/has an example of this version of the type 41 fuze?
of course all items shown are inert and FFE.
regards Kev
Many of you will be familiar with the SD2 warning leaflet seen below....
first released in 1941 and again in 1943 it shows two images of the butterfly bomb, one open and one closed. But, take a closer look and you will notice something - a 'perculiar' fuze in the photo showing the SD2 in the open position....
Like many I overlooked this at first, however I uncovered a small drawing whilst doing research and this lead me to think again. So, what is different about this fuze? Well, to all intense and purposes, nothing, in its function; the differences are subtle and easily overlooked. The main differance is that this has four small 'spanner' holes, as opposed to the familiar 'two large ones' in the upper surface. The fuze itself is a Type 41, as you would expect from a photograph which dates back to 1941 (no other type was in use at the time). It appears that this arrangement was very short lived.
For those of you who are eagle-eyed enough the fuze does appear in the official manual produced by the Germans - available for download here http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/downloads.php?do=file&id=263 photos appear in illustration 6. Although this is a 1941 edition of the manual, it does appear (looking at the first page that an earlier edition existed and this was an updated version). I imagine that illustration 6 is part of this original edition - other photos of the 41 fuze and drawing showing the two hole one which we are all familiar.
On closer inspection of the fuze I have, I noticed that it is dated 1940. The wings to which it is attached, and obvioulsy has been for some considerable time are slightly damaged but original paint dated 1943 - I suspect that the fuze may have been recovered much earlier in the war than the wings themselves........but I guess I will never know; it may even be from one of the very first raids?
so here are some photographs, together with a solid brass example that I have had for a number of years now, which I suspect was manufactured during the war for use for recognition purposes.
I would love to know if anyone else has seen/has an example of this version of the type 41 fuze?
of course all items shown are inert and FFE.
regards Kev
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I'm guessing you're trying to unscrew it in the correct direction (CLOCKWISE when you look down on the fuze i.e. opposite to what you'd expect)?
Dave.
butterfly
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
Very nice.
Such things are worth waiting for Kev
Any ideas on why the thread is so long?
Dave.
Indeed!!
regarding the length of the threads I can only speculate - it does seem something (as far as I know at present), that is common to fuzes of this type - however it is not unique to this type - I have seen a small number of the 2-holed 41 fuzes with this same 'long thread'
I can only asume that the thread was made this long to make sure that the fuze did not unscrew during the drop and was a tight fit in the body. I can again only assume that it was at some point not found neccessary and as such the length was reduced, this would also speed up manufacture of course. I guess it is just part of the development. (I may of course be proved wrong in time, and I no longer assume anything to be gospel !!)
regards Kev
butterfly
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
This is the small drawing from 'Handbook of Enemy Ammunition' No3 - September 1941 which first alerted me to the existance of this four holed variation of the type 41 SD2 fuze. The British official photograph which was used extensively to warn of the dangers of the butterfly bomb shows an example in a SD2, which presumably was one recovered from an early raid.
The other photograph appears in the German manual on the SD2 with type 41 fuze, again showing this variation.
The other photograph appears in the German manual on the SD2 with type 41 fuze, again showing this variation.
butterfly
HONOURED MEMBER RIP
SD2 wing set produced entirely from stamped steel. (I posted these also on a separate thread, but thought they also deserved a place here)
I am afraid I have no other information on these, they are the only ones I have ever seen and have yet to find even a photo of another set.
These could be the 'missing link' between the SD2 and the M83, and be the reason why the M83 went on to be largely produced using the stamped steel method of manufacture. (any information relating to these most welcome)
Kev
I am afraid I have no other information on these, they are the only ones I have ever seen and have yet to find even a photo of another set.
These could be the 'missing link' between the SD2 and the M83, and be the reason why the M83 went on to be largely produced using the stamped steel method of manufacture. (any information relating to these most welcome)
Kev
Kev posted a very useful post here showing different M 83 fuzes and I have a number in my collection also.
From what I can work out
the T 49, T 49E1 and T 49E2 fuzes correspond to the M131 service fuzes for the M 83 which are the equivalent of the German SD 2 70B fuze.
The T 48 fuze corresponded to the M 130 service fuze for the M 83 which are the equivalent of the German SD 2 67 fuze.
Would I be right in assuming that the T 47 fuze exists and that it corresponds to the M 129? The M129 is the equivalent of the German SD 2 41 fuze.
The reason I ask is because I have seen specimens of all but the T 47 fuze (I assume this is what it would be called). Does anyone have a specimen or photograph of one that they can post please?
Dave.
For many years both Kev and I tried to get hold of a 70A fuze. A couple have appeared on BOCN but no amount of arm twisting would persuade people to part with them.
According to Kev they were never dropped over the UK.
Shortly before Kev passed away he managed to get hold of one, a good friend now has it.
I was browsing over ebay a few weeks ago and there was a beaten up SD 2, on closer inspection it had a 70A fuze. I even tipped someone off about it as I don't now actively collect butterfly's. It didn't sell and the seller re listed it for a very good price so I just had to go for it.
So here it is. I'll do some sympathetic cleaning work over the next few weeks. I just goes to show these little gems are still there on ebay to be had.
Dave.
According to Kev they were never dropped over the UK.
Shortly before Kev passed away he managed to get hold of one, a good friend now has it.
I was browsing over ebay a few weeks ago and there was a beaten up SD 2, on closer inspection it had a 70A fuze. I even tipped someone off about it as I don't now actively collect butterfly's. It didn't sell and the seller re listed it for a very good price so I just had to go for it.
So here it is. I'll do some sympathetic cleaning work over the next few weeks. I just goes to show these little gems are still there on ebay to be had.
Dave.
AKJAXBEACH
Member
I now have two M83 with variations perhaps one early and the other a late model? What do you think?
I don't think one model is necessarily newer than the other. I've got a set of design drawings for these from WW2 and both types you show were around then.
There is another type that is absolutely identical to the German SD 2 i.e. the wing cradle is a single piece (unlike the one you show on the left which is of multi piece construction) and there are brackets to clip the wings together as opposed to holes in the wings - which personally I think would be the earliest type but don't have any proof of that.
Good to see the variations on the arming wires.
Which fuze types are they? It should say on the side when you unscrew them.
Thanks for showing them.
Dave.
In this great thread which Kev started off there are many references to different fuzes.
Apart from minor variations between different manufacturers here is what I believe to be the full set of SD 2 fuzes.
Dave.
Early 41 with 4 holes
Possible reproduction of the early 41.
41
41A
67
67 with dummy switch (this does not function it is part of the case casting)
70A
70B
70B1
70B2
Apart from minor variations between different manufacturers here is what I believe to be the full set of SD 2 fuzes.
Dave.
Early 41 with 4 holes
Possible reproduction of the early 41.
41
41A
67
67 with dummy switch (this does not function it is part of the case casting)
70A
70B
70B1
70B2
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I recently bought a really rough 70b2 with a view to doing a section on it.
Attached are a few photos. The top of the fuze has been cut to reveal the trembler weight which, despite being a relic fuze is still attached to the tiny spring on the inside.
The base of the fuze was naturally heavily corroded so I just removed the corrosion to reveal loads of tiny cogs and wheels that are normally difficult to show on a section.
Broken or cut surfaces are highlighted in red.
In the first photograph the arming needle can be seen to the left in the armed position (the spring for this is inside the hollow screw to the left. It is held in place with the small rod next to it. The (inert) percussion cap is to the left of the right hand screw.
All INERT.
Dave.
Attached are a few photos. The top of the fuze has been cut to reveal the trembler weight which, despite being a relic fuze is still attached to the tiny spring on the inside.
The base of the fuze was naturally heavily corroded so I just removed the corrosion to reveal loads of tiny cogs and wheels that are normally difficult to show on a section.
Broken or cut surfaces are highlighted in red.
In the first photograph the arming needle can be seen to the left in the armed position (the spring for this is inside the hollow screw to the left. It is held in place with the small rod next to it. The (inert) percussion cap is to the left of the right hand screw.
All INERT.
Dave.
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