What's new
British Ordnance Collectors Network

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

Alleged CW munitions in Syria

RogueAdventurer

RogueAdventurer

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
G'day all,

I've written a short piece with a preliminary analysis of the alleged chemical weapons (CW) munitions used in Syria recently.

http://rogueadventurer.com/2013/08/25/preliminary-analysis-of-alleged-cw-munitions-used-in-syria/

Several BOCN members contributed their thoughts, however I would love to hear from others out there who may have input.

Certainly a VERY preliminary assessment at this stage, but there is a lot of misinformation and BS going around re: these, so hoping to keep track of what we actually know or credibly suspect.
 
A few random thoughts:
A comment on youtube says red Beret'd troops are Presidential Guards, are there other red beret'd government troops, are they that stupid to wear such a distinguishing item of uniform?
No one is wearing chemical suits or masks, are the missiles loaded with chemical?
People wandering about at the time of the launch, not very military, no security, no safety zones.
Videoed with a tripod mounted camera that just happens to be present as the missile is being delivered. The video doesn't show it being unloaded or loaded into the launcher so probably edited to some degree.
Brazenly out in the open, apparently not afraid of being visible.
The attack occurred during the night, some reports state 3am. The video is clearly daytime, although from the angle of the shadows it is either early morning or late evening.
No verified date/time/location.
 
Well observed LCPL!
Also note the way the rocket was loaded onto that red truck. Just put there without any propper shipping container or safety measures not to say shielding from the sun etc.

Watching this video here I seriously wonder what kind of UN experts they sent?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76h5T1PlnX0

If the attempetd investigation is as lousy as these images let me conclude I wonder if the findings of these people are meant to play any role. Embarassing!
 
Last edited:
LCplCombat said:
A few random thoughts:
A comment on youtube says red Beret'd troops are Presidential Guards, are there other red beret'd government troops, are they that stupid to wear such a distinguishing item of uniform?
No one is wearing chemical suits or masks, are the missiles loaded with chemical?
People wandering about at the time of the launch, not very military, no security, no safety zones.
Videoed with a tripod mounted camera that just happens to be present as the missile is being delivered. The video doesn't show it being unloaded or loaded into the launcher so probably edited to some degree.
Brazenly out in the open, apparently not afraid of being visible.
The attack occurred during the night, some reports state 3am. The video is clearly daytime, although from the angle of the shadows it is either early morning or late evening.
No verified date/time/location.
Click to expand...

Some good points. Some addressed below:

A comment on youtube says red Beret'd troops are Presidential Guards, are there other red beret'd government troops, are they that stupid to wear such a distinguishing item of uniform?
I'm told Syrian Military Police also wear red berets, but this is not really my area.

No one is wearing chemical suits or masks, are the missiles loaded with chemical?
My current thinking is that there may be multiple variants of this munition. At the very least, I suspect an HE or FAE/Thermobaric variant exists. There may also be similar munitions in varying lengths, and possibly varying diameters as well.

People wandering about at the time of the launch, not very military, no security, no safety zones.
Strikes me as similar to much of the Syrian conflict I have seen.

The attack occurred during the night, some reports state 3am. The video is clearly daytime, although from the angle of the shadows it is either early morning or late evening.
These munitions have been used in several attacks, not just the attack on Eastern Ghouta you're referring to.

No verified date/time/location.
Appears consistent with several other reports that rockets (including Falaq-2) have been fired from Mezzeh Military Airport for some time, but certainly needs to be verified.


Nothing conclusive, as I mention, but we're slowly getting some more pieces of the puzzle.
 
I've watched a number of the UN vids, they appear to be doing OK, at least they put a ruler down by the ordnance item when they take picture. Now if they would just go to one of those rockets that is sticking out of the ground and do a back azimuth they can get an idea of where it came from. Plus the US is backing off a little on their confirmed intell. From the latest vid's I finally realized what the launcher looked like, for some reason I had a different idea. I still think these rockets are in line with the ones the rebels have been making, they just stepped up the design. I still say what for the proof, the vids shown and eye witness statements should be considered suspect - they are one sided. Syria is a little different then Iraq, we'd be better off keeping the iron fisted dictator in power then risk another Islamic extremist government.
 
EOD said:
Well observed LCPL!
Also note the way the rocket was loaded onto that red truck. Just put there without any propper shipping container or safety measures not to say shielding from the sun etc.

Watching this video here I seriously wonder what kind of UN experts they sent?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76h5T1PlnX0

If the attempetd investigation is as lousy as these images let me conclude I wonder if the findings of these people are meant to play any role. Embarassing!
Click to expand...

Ironically he's German :)

Pete
 
After looking at the Falaq-2, and the rockets in question, the only similar thing I note I they both use a big tube type launcher. But the Falaq2 is a spin stabilized rocket with some decent range. The rocket in question is a fin stabilized and by design is limited in range. You be nice to have some decent measurements, but the rocket motor in question appears to eb close to a 122mm rocket motor, unfortunately there is no good look at the rear rocket nozzle(s). WOnder if I could make a good living teaching reporters and street rebels on how to take good ordnance ID pictures and be able to ID parts with proper names. Of course it would be nice if they didn't pick up every piece of the items and carry them all over the city. But at least if they can the expended ordnance and not get sick then there is no threat of chemcial
 
I just heard on the radio that the UK government has been defeated in a vote about whether to take direct military action against the Syrian regime with regard to its alleged use of chemical weapons. I guess the majority of British MPs are sceptical about the `evidence', hardly surprising in light of the `evidence of weapons of mass destruction' that was used as the basis for sending our forces to war in Iraq. In the Cold War period the UK had `Cymbeline' mortar locating radar. Perhaps if the UN inspectors had something similar backed up with aerial surveillance then it could be firmly established who is using CW in Syria. Just my opinion.
 
why don't they sent you over
EOD said:
Well observed LCPL!
Also note the way the rocket was loaded onto that red truck. Just put there without any propper shipping container or safety measures not to say shielding from the sun etc.

Watching this video here I seriously wonder what kind of UN experts they sent?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=76h5T1PlnX0

If the attempetd investigation is as lousy as these images let me conclude I wonder if the findings of these people are meant to play any role. Embarassing!
Click to expand...
 
Highly suspect. Not enough evidence. I find it blatantly obvious that the U S is jumping on this quickly again. Sad mess !
 
Hello to all,
I read a little while what is said on this rocket but you will notice that this rocket is much like the FAE rocket 345 mm M130 SULFAE.
Capt-1420421.jpgCapt-1420422.jpg
 
Have the UN inspectors released the type of gas , if any, employed? I ghink it is BS. :)
 
I think regardless of inspections, it's impossible to get the complete truth and easier to make people believe what they want you to believe. Who's fabricating what and who do you believe. No question concerning the fact that almost 1500 people had to suffer like that. That really is the sad truth.
As before. Sad Mess.
 
Our Sec of State is saying they have proof from blood and hair samples that were smuggled out (but still maintained chain of custody!!). And that these sample show signs of sarin. But then so does a number of organophosphate pesticides. And if it is sarin, then there appears to be a lot of how we have trained to react to it, decontaminate it and how persistent it is, has been wrong. Regardless, this is one the US needs to stay out of, let the Arab League or the EU take the lead this time.
 
Traces of non persistent Sarin showing in hair samples? That doesn't sound right. The UN inspectors got there days after the alleged attack. And if anyone in the Syrian hospitals were bright enough to take samples at the time would the results show up afterwards? Did they know how to test for Sarin?

According to this web page http://www.sc-ems.com/ems/NuclearBiologicalChemical/Sarin/sarin.htm Sarin will only last for about 3 hours in a hot climate and up to 8 hours in low temperatures.

Anyone qualified to say if this is possible
 
http://wtkr.com/2013/09/01/kerry-blood-hair-samples-from-syria-test-positive-for-sarin-gas/

tested positive for signatures of sarin gas, Secretary of State John Kerry said Sunday
Click to expand...

"signatures" could mean anything.

Kerry said on CNNs State of the Union that the U.S. obtained the samples independently through an appropriate chain of custody, not the United Nations chemical weapons inspectors.
Click to expand...

So the Americans have someone on the ground able to collect, test and document samples and ready to go within minuets of an NBC strike and was contacted within 3 hours of the attack to enable them to get to work.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top