75mm ARES Telescoped APFSDS-T

[Matt R.]

Hello Dave,

In addition to the dimensions listed earlier for the 45mm & 75mm APFSDS, I would also be interested in the following data :

a) penetrator mass
b) sabot mass

I hope this is not going to be too difficult to obtain this data.

Thanks in advance.

Kind regards.

Matt.

 

[SG500]

Hello Dave,

In addition to the dimensions listed earlier for the 45mm & 75mm APFSDS, I would also be interested in the following data :

a) penetrator mass
b) sabot mass

I hope this is not going to be too difficult to obtain this data.

Thanks in advance.

Kind regards.

Matt.

OK will do.
Give me a few days to sort things out.
I won't be able to weigh the penetrator on the 75mm because the band is in place on the sabot but the ones on the COMVAT are so I can weigh the 2 different types.
Dave.

 

[Matt R.]

OK will do.
Give me a few days to sort things out.
I won't be able to weigh the penetrator on the 75mm because the band is in place on the sabot but the ones on the COMVAT are so I can weigh the 2 different types.
Dave.

That sounds good to me !

Thanks in advance.

Kind regards.

Matt.

 

[SG500]

Here's the info on the 45mmm COMVAT. Weights to follow when I get around to replacing the battery in the scales I have.

Dave.

COMVAT dimensions. Measurements taken from actual specimens. 5[SUP]th[/SUP] April 2014.

Case. CTA case with rounded base
Length 300 to 304mm (rounded base)
External diameter 69.75mm
Diameter measured in groove 63.80mm
Diameter of primer hole 21.17mm
Internal diameter of case at mouth 46.15mm
Thickness of case measured at case mouth 11.80mm

Projectile type 1 (black painted). 3 piece sabot with penetrator. This came with the case
Length of penetrator including fin 264mm
Diameter of penetrator measured by fin 13.28mm
Length of fin only 45.37mm
Width of fin at widest point 38.04mm
Width of forward band 5.45mm
Thickness of forward band 2.60mm (at lip) 1.90mm (not at lip)
Internal diameter of forward band 40.89mm
Width of rear band 11.42mm
Thickness of rear band 2.45mm
Internal diameter of rear band 41.43mm
Max diameter of sabot 44.90mm
Length of sabot 150.94mm
Diameter of sabot at narrowest point 21.55mm

Projectile type 2 (unpainted). 3 piece sabot with penetrator
Length of penetrator including fin 228mm
Diameter of penetrator measured by fin 11.62mm
Length of fin only 37.59mm
Width of fin at widest point 29.35mm
Width of forward band 5.45mm
Thickness of forward band 1.95mm (no lip)
Internal diameter of forward band 41.00mm
Width of rear band 11.42mm
Thickness of rear band 2.00mm
Internal diameter of rear band 41.00mm
Max diameter of sabot 44.90mm
Length of sabot 133.50mm
Diameter of sabot at narrowest point 18.84mm

 

[Matt R.]

Here's the info on the 45mmm COMVAT. Weights to follow when I get around to replacing the battery in the scales I have.

Dave.

COMVAT dimensions. Measurements taken from actual specimens. 5[SUP]th[/SUP] April 2014.

Case. CTA case with rounded base
Length 300 to 304mm (rounded base)
External diameter 69.75mm
Diameter measured in groove 63.80mm
Diameter of primer hole 21.17mm
Internal diameter of case at mouth 46.15mm
Thickness of case measured at case mouth 11.80mm

Projectile type 1 (black painted). 3 piece sabot with penetrator. This came with the case
Length of penetrator including fin 264mm
Diameter of penetrator measured by fin 13.28mm
Length of fin only 45.37mm
Width of fin at widest point 38.04mm
Width of forward band 5.45mm
Thickness of forward band 2.60mm (at lip) 1.90mm (not at lip)
Internal diameter of forward band 40.89mm
Width of rear band 11.42mm
Thickness of rear band 2.45mm
Internal diameter of rear band 41.43mm
Max diameter of sabot 44.90mm
Length of sabot 150.94mm
Diameter of sabot at narrowest point 21.55mm

Projectile type 2 (unpainted). 3 piece sabot with penetrator
Length of penetrator including fin 228mm
Diameter of penetrator measured by fin 11.62mm
Length of fin only 37.59mm
Width of fin at widest point 29.35mm
Width of forward band 5.45mm
Thickness of forward band 1.95mm (no lip)
Internal diameter of forward band 41.00mm
Width of rear band 11.42mm
Thickness of rear band 2.00mm
Internal diameter of rear band 41.00mm
Max diameter of sabot 44.90mm
Length of sabot 133.50mm
Diameter of sabot at narrowest point 18.84mm

View attachment 90222View attachment 90220View attachment 90219View attachment 90223View attachment 90224View attachment 90225

Hello Dave,

Thanks a lot for the pictures and all the measurements you've taken !

I'll have to wait for the masses (penetrator on the one hand and sabot on the other hand) to be known before I can try to add some further comments on these projectiles.

Many thanks again for the great work.

Kind regards.

Matt.

 

[SG500]

Weights for the COMVAT 45mm.

Case:
1991g

Short projectile:
Total weight 562g
Plastic bands 4g
Dart 320g
3 x Sabot total weight 238g

Long Projectile.
Total weight 750g
Plastic bands 4g
Dart 478g
3 x Sabot total weight 268g

 

[SG500]

Hello Dave,

I would also be very interested in the dimensions of the darts (penetrator), especially for the 75mm ARES.

The dimensions I am interested in are :

a) the overall length of the penetrator (tip & tracer included)
b) the diameter of the penetrator
c) the length of the tip
d) the length of the tracer (if any)

Thanks a lot in advance.

Kind regards.

Matt.

For the 75mm:

a) the overall length of the penetrator (tip & tracer included) 375 mm
b) the diameter of the penetrator 19.80 mm measured just in front of the fin
c) the length of the tip about 64 mm
d) the length of the tracer (if any) tracer cavity is 15.69 mm deep and 16.04 mm in diameter

Also fin diameter is 63.52 mm at widest point and 114.70 mm long

The penetrator appears to be steel and not tungsten alloy, it feels light compared to other similar projectiles. Total weight of the 4 piece sabot, white plastic band (which may not be correct as per earlier discussion) and penetrator/fin is 1462g.

Dave.

 

[Matt R.]

For the 75mm:

a) the overall length of the penetrator (tip & tracer included) 375 mm
b) the diameter of the penetrator 19.80 mm measured just in front of the fin
c) the length of the tip about 64 mm
d) the length of the tracer (if any) tracer cavity is 15.69 mm deep and 16.04 mm in diameter

Also fin diameter is 63.52 mm at widest point and 114.70 mm long

The penetrator appears to be steel and not tungsten alloy, it feels light compared to other similar projectiles. Total weight of the 4 piece sabot, white plastic band (which may not be correct as per earlier discussion) and penetrator/fin is 1462g.

Dave.

Thanks a lot for the data.

Based on the dimensions provided, the 75mm penetrator looks very similar (if not identical) to the tungsten penetrator of the M464 APFSDS developed by AAI Corp. for 76mm M32 cannons :




This would make sense since the M464 APFSDS is said to be based on the experience gained in developing the 75mm APFSDS, both designs being from AAI Corp.

If this assumption is correct, then assuming a MV of 1,463 m/s (4,800 fps) and a velocity decay of 76 m/s/km produces the following penetration estimates :

@ 1,000 meters : 259mm @ 0 / 152mm @ 60
@ 1,500 meters : 249mm @ 0 / 146mm @ 60
@ 2,000 meters : 239mm @ 0 / 139mm @ 60
@ 2,500 meters : 228mm @ 0 / 133mm @ 60

 

[Matt R.]

Weights for the COMVAT 45mm.

Case:
1991g

Short projectile:
Total weight 562g
Plastic bands 4g
Dart 320g
3 x Sabot total weight 238g

Long Projectile.
Total weight 750g
Plastic bands 4g
Dart 478g
3 x Sabot total weight 268g

Thanks a lot for the mass data.

Data for the long projectile is somewhat consistent with details given in Tony Williams' Rapid Fire (page 231), i.e. projectile mass = 754g and penetrator mass = 421g and with information provided in the 1996 DoD report, i.e projectile mass = 755g.

According to the 1996 DoD report, muzzle velocity was about 1,350 m/s, whereas Rapid Fire states a MV in excess of 1,600 m/s. Using the DoD report figure of 1,350 m/s and assuming a velocity decay of 110 m/s/km produces the following penetration estimates :

@ 1,000 meters : 145mm @ 0 / 85mm @ 60
@ 1,500 meters : 134mm @ 0 / 78mm @ 60
@ 2,000 meters : 121mm @ 0 / 71mm @ 60
@ 2,500 meters : 109mm @ 0 / 64mm @ 60

I have no velocity data for the short projectile, but assuming a constant muzzle energy of 683 KJ, one gets a MV of 1,550 m/s, with a velocity decay of 115 m/s /km. This produces the following penetration estimates :

@ 1,000 meters : 156mm @ 0 / 91mm @ 60
@ 1,500 meters : 147mm @ 0 / 86mm @ 60
@ 2,000 meters : 138mm @ 0 / 81mm @ 60
@ 2,500 meters : 129mm @ 0 / 75mm @ 60

For comparison purposes, these are the estimates I came up with for the 40mm CTAI APFSDS projectile (250g penetrator, 219mm length, 165mm effective length, 10.3mm diameter), with a MV of 1,600 m/s and a velocity decay of 120 m/s :

@ 1,000 meters : 154mm @ 0 / 90mm @ 60
@ 1,500 meters : 146mm @ 0 / 86mm @ 60
@ 2,000 meters : 138mm @ 0 / 81mm @ 60
@ 2,500 meters : 129mm @ 0 / 75mm @ 60

These estimates for the 40mm CTAI are reasonably consistent with the commonly quoted figure of 150mm @ 0 @ 1,500 meters.

Hope the above may of of interest.

Kind regards.

Matt.

 

[Matt R.]

Here's the info on the 45mmm COMVAT. Weights to follow when I get around to replacing the battery in the scales I have.

Dave.

COMVAT dimensions. Measurements taken from actual specimens. 5[SUP]th[/SUP] April 2014.

Case. CTA case with rounded base
Length 300 to 304mm (rounded base)
External diameter 69.75mm
Diameter measured in groove 63.80mm
Diameter of primer hole 21.17mm
Internal diameter of case at mouth 46.15mm
Thickness of case measured at case mouth 11.80mm

Projectile type 1 (black painted). 3 piece sabot with penetrator. This came with the case
Length of penetrator including fin 264mm
Diameter of penetrator measured by fin 13.28mm
Length of fin only 45.37mm
Width of fin at widest point 38.04mm
Width of forward band 5.45mm
Thickness of forward band 2.60mm (at lip) 1.90mm (not at lip)
Internal diameter of forward band 40.89mm
Width of rear band 11.42mm
Thickness of rear band 2.45mm
Internal diameter of rear band 41.43mm
Max diameter of sabot 44.90mm
Length of sabot 150.94mm
Diameter of sabot at narrowest point 21.55mm

Projectile type 2 (unpainted). 3 piece sabot with penetrator
Length of penetrator including fin 228mm
Diameter of penetrator measured by fin 11.62mm
Length of fin only 37.59mm
Width of fin at widest point 29.35mm
Width of forward band 5.45mm
Thickness of forward band 1.95mm (no lip)
Internal diameter of forward band 41.00mm
Width of rear band 11.42mm
Thickness of rear band 2.00mm
Internal diameter of rear band 41.00mm
Max diameter of sabot 44.90mm
Length of sabot 133.50mm
Diameter of sabot at narrowest point 18.84mm

View attachment 90222View attachment 90220View attachment 90219View attachment 90223View attachment 90224View attachment 90225

Hi Dave,


I couldn't find the length of the tip for either projectile in your original post above. I therefore assumed about 28mm for the long projectile and 25mm for the short projectile.

Can you confirm whether these estimates are in the right ballpark or not ?

Thanks in advance.

Kind regards.

Matt.

 

[SG500]

Hi Dave,


I couldn't find the length of the tip for either projectile in your original post above. I therefore assumed about 28mm for the long projectile and 25mm for the short projectile.

Can you confirm whether these estimates are in the right ballpark or not ?

Thanks in advance.

Kind regards.

Matt.

Interesting numbers Matt, thanks.

Tip length (as in the black bit) on the larger one is 31mm. Length of the top from point to fill diameter of penetrator is 48mm.
Tip length (as in the black bit) on the smaller one is 28mm. Length of the top from point to fill diameter of penetrator is 43mm.

Dave.

 

[Matt R.]

Interesting numbers Matt, thanks.

Tip length (as in the black bit) on the larger one is 31mm. Length of the top from point to fill diameter of penetrator is 48mm.
Tip length (as in the black bit) on the smaller one is 28mm. Length of the top from point to fill diameter of penetrator is 43mm.

Dave.

Hi Dave,

Thanks for the additional infos.

I've adjusted the penetration estimates accordingly, switched from cm to mm, and added more datapoints.

Since the numbers I came up with are within 5mm of the published figures for the 40mm CTAI (at distances comprised between 0 and 3,000 meters, with an increment of 500 meters), I believe the estimates for the COMVAT APFSDS should be reasonably accurate if the MVs postulated are correct.

Kind regards.

Matt.

 

[Maverick1112003]

About ten years ago, I got a 30 mm APFSDF projectile.
The projectile came with a 30x173 case in new condition.

Today, I think there is not a relationship between the case and the projectile.
The projectile looks like the 45 mm COMVAT.
It does not get a seating cannelure, so, I think it must not be mounted on a conventional case.
Thanks for any help

 

[SG500]

About ten years ago, I got a 30 mm APFSDF projectile.
The projectile came with a 30x173 case in new condition.
View attachment 95884
Today, I think there is not a relationship between the case and the projectile.
The projectile looks like the 45 mm COMVAT.
It does not get a seating cannelure, so, I think it must not be mounted on a conventional case.
Thanks for any help

Hi, nice round, yes I've seen about 10 of these for sale over the last 10 years, all in a conventional GAU 8 style case. There have been discussions about this on the forum but from memory nobody seems to have worked out if the projectile and case go together (clearly you wouldn't want to fire saboted rounds from an aircraft gun as the petals would get sucked into the engine, unless its side firing as in some of the gun ships), anyone out there got any more ideas on this one?
Dave.

 

[Tony Williams]

The question is, what other 30mm cartridge might it have been intended for? It appears to be the right length for the 30x173 case (in terms of keeping the COAL the same).

The light-alloy GAU-8 type cases have been used in more than just aircraft, for example the Goalkeeper CIWS which uses APDS in service but might well have been experimentally tried with APFSDS at some point. The Mauser MK 30 cannon has also been around for a long time in land mountings, although admittedly mostly for AA purposes until fairly recently.

 

[Spaceinvader]

I remember reading somewhere, I cannot remember where, that they were meant for an AFV project that never got anywhere. I could be confusing two rounds but I think its this one.

 

[SG500]

I picked these up recently. Magnesium petals for the 75mm ARES.
Weighing in at an average of 153 grammes per petal they are very light for their size.
Dave.

 

[HAZORD]

They look just like the ones I have.

 

[SG500]

Hello Dave,In addition to the dimensions listed earlier for the 45mm & 75mm APFSDS, I would also be interested in the following data :a) penetrator mass b) sabot massI hope this is not going to be too difficult to obtain this data.Thanks in advance.Kind regards.Matt.

Matt, based on weighing the 75mm projectile and sabots that I have:the 4 x sabot petals weigh a total of 604g.The complete projectile weighs 1462g (note tracer is empty)Therefore the weight of the penetrator, fin and plastic band is 858g.Dave.