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37mm Japanese?
- Thread starter Darren
- Start date
Interesting thought from Gordon,I'm sure that the IJA would not have turned their noses up at the thought of re using captured ammunition
components of the correct calibre.Especially as it became increasingly
difficult to manufacture their own,the answer is perhaps in the little
unrecognised marks on the projectiles.If it transpired that these were
Japanese arsenal re loading marks,then Darren might be the proud
possessor of two rounds of late war Japanese ersatz ammunition!!!!
components of the correct calibre.Especially as it became increasingly
difficult to manufacture their own,the answer is perhaps in the little
unrecognised marks on the projectiles.If it transpired that these were
Japanese arsenal re loading marks,then Darren might be the proud
possessor of two rounds of late war Japanese ersatz ammunition!!!!
Darren
Well-Known Member
Right, ive just had a little clean up of the base of the projectile with the flat bottom, some of the markings are clear and some not so clear.
I can make out: R F M 9 3 ? ?
The first question mark looks to be a really bad 8 or some sort of symbol
The second question mark looks a little like an upside down 5
It took alot of elbow greese to get to these stamps, i will try to clean it up a little more at some point. (any ideas on what i can use to clean it up better)
Any info on these stamps would be great.
Thanks,
Darren
I can make out: R F M 9 3 ? ?
The first question mark looks to be a really bad 8 or some sort of symbol
The second question mark looks a little like an upside down 5
It took alot of elbow greese to get to these stamps, i will try to clean it up a little more at some point. (any ideas on what i can use to clean it up better)
Any info on these stamps would be great.
Thanks,
Darren
Attachments
BOUGAINVILLE
Well-Known Member
Captured ordnance
Hi there, :tinysmile_shy_t:
It is well ducumented that the Japanese had huge supplies of Italian made ammunition such as in the 12.7 x 81 mm SR etc. Some British ammunition was also used such as with the Navy's 40mm Vickers AA. As they ran out of these foriegn manufactured ammunition they produced their own.
They also made use of captured stores. One of the best ducumented cases is the Dutch Anti Personnel / Anti Tank Mine P.W. 2-41. A huge amount was captured by the Japanese in what is now Indonesia. These mines were then employed by the Japanese in such far away place as Guadalcanal.
The clue if any for those two 37mm projectiles would be the markings above the drive bands in which case could be a Japanese inspectors acceptance stamp. That is just a wild stab in the dark mind you.
Cheers,
BOUGAINVILLE :tinysmile_shy_t:
Hi there, :tinysmile_shy_t:
It is well ducumented that the Japanese had huge supplies of Italian made ammunition such as in the 12.7 x 81 mm SR etc. Some British ammunition was also used such as with the Navy's 40mm Vickers AA. As they ran out of these foriegn manufactured ammunition they produced their own.
They also made use of captured stores. One of the best ducumented cases is the Dutch Anti Personnel / Anti Tank Mine P.W. 2-41. A huge amount was captured by the Japanese in what is now Indonesia. These mines were then employed by the Japanese in such far away place as Guadalcanal.
The clue if any for those two 37mm projectiles would be the markings above the drive bands in which case could be a Japanese inspectors acceptance stamp. That is just a wild stab in the dark mind you.
Cheers,
BOUGAINVILLE :tinysmile_shy_t:
BOUGAINVILLE
Well-Known Member
37mm shell casings.
Somehow I think that the only way to get the Japanese projectiles is for Darren to buy the complete items, but not worrying about the condition of the cases as he already has two excellent cases. I have never seen projectiles on there own. If a person places a request in the Japanese section of www.gunboards.com then one might be lucky.
Cheers,
BOUGAINVILLE :tinysmile_shy_t:
Somehow I think that the only way to get the Japanese projectiles is for Darren to buy the complete items, but not worrying about the condition of the cases as he already has two excellent cases. I have never seen projectiles on there own. If a person places a request in the Japanese section of www.gunboards.com then one might be lucky.
Cheers,
BOUGAINVILLE :tinysmile_shy_t:
Strange Marks
I had the marks looked at by a fellow who specialized in Japanese munitions for 20 years. He says they are not Japanese. No idea what they are.
So I guess we will have to stay with the idea somebody filled two empty cases with these being easily at hand.
The flat bottomed projectile is dated 93 for 1893, RFM will be whole made it (somebody will know - I should but don't ! at the moment) There is a bomb mark for inspection/acceptance, the 5 might be a lot #. Having a later fuze is not a problem, these might be changed every so many years. The other one with a lump on the bottom is likely 1915 made.
I had the marks looked at by a fellow who specialized in Japanese munitions for 20 years. He says they are not Japanese. No idea what they are.
So I guess we will have to stay with the idea somebody filled two empty cases with these being easily at hand.
The flat bottomed projectile is dated 93 for 1893, RFM will be whole made it (somebody will know - I should but don't ! at the moment) There is a bomb mark for inspection/acceptance, the 5 might be a lot #. Having a later fuze is not a problem, these might be changed every so many years. The other one with a lump on the bottom is likely 1915 made.
Oh well!!! Another beautiful theory eliminated by an inconvenient fact!!!
The complete round,duff case route suggested by Bougainville is probably
the best hope for suitable Jap projectiles,I'm thinking.
This fitting of French 37mm shells in any case they happen to fit seems
quite common.One dealers website I visit from time to time has two on offer right now,one described as WW1 German will no doubt have a Karlsruhe marked case but it's got a French shell in it.The other one which looks exactly the same is described as WW2 Pak 37 ????? No headstamps
are shown,but the case on the second one looks to have a lovely dark
coppery patina.I'm tempted to buy it just to find out by what stretch of the imagination he thinks it's WW2 Pak.
The complete round,duff case route suggested by Bougainville is probably
the best hope for suitable Jap projectiles,I'm thinking.
This fitting of French 37mm shells in any case they happen to fit seems
quite common.One dealers website I visit from time to time has two on offer right now,one described as WW1 German will no doubt have a Karlsruhe marked case but it's got a French shell in it.The other one which looks exactly the same is described as WW2 Pak 37 ????? No headstamps
are shown,but the case on the second one looks to have a lovely dark
coppery patina.I'm tempted to buy it just to find out by what stretch of the imagination he thinks it's WW2 Pak.
Hi guys,
I'm kinda back (in and out) to this forum, after having had about two months of time that were too much filled with work obligations, and hence too little time for fun stuff like this.
Anyway, most of what I can tell about these items has already been answered in detail by the rest, but some points of interest (perhaps):
AFAIK these projectiles are completely wrong for them, as they appear to be Hotchkiss projectiles, as stated, of French manufacture. I can't say for sure if these projectiles were perhaps manufactured for Japanese Hotchkiss rounds, as there's little or no documentation out there on ammo from before the Showa eras, however, from what I've seen, including in Ken Elks' part 2 on Japanese ammunition (page 190), it doesn't seem likely.
It appears that only the IJN used the 37mm Hotckisses, and the types shown look very different (with a very wide driving band) and have naval (anchor shaped) acceptance marks. No mention whatsoever of French manufacture...
Some of the Japanese ones are shown right here on BOCN too, in the thread: http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/japanese-hotchkiss-37mm-t37127.html?t=37127
It looks like they're standard (?) 37mm Hotchkiss projectiles, and they're definitely put into the wrong case. This type op Japanese 37mm case was equipped with standard 37mm projectiles (at least: that's what my documentation says). The Hotchkiss projectiles are also MUCH older than the cases.
As for the markings on the projectiles; the '+' like marking look familiar: I've seen similar markings on some Russian cases I have at home. Also, I have two 76.2x385R 'Ratsch-bum' cases with very bizarre headstamps: they look essentially Russian, but they also feature the notorious 'F' marking and the crossed cannons of the Osaka arsenal. Japanese manufacture for Russia? Vice versa?
Anyway, one of these cases also has this + resembling mark.
I wonder what it means....
Cheers,
Olaf
I'm kinda back (in and out) to this forum, after having had about two months of time that were too much filled with work obligations, and hence too little time for fun stuff like this.
Anyway, most of what I can tell about these items has already been answered in detail by the rest, but some points of interest (perhaps):
AFAIK these projectiles are completely wrong for them, as they appear to be Hotchkiss projectiles, as stated, of French manufacture. I can't say for sure if these projectiles were perhaps manufactured for Japanese Hotchkiss rounds, as there's little or no documentation out there on ammo from before the Showa eras, however, from what I've seen, including in Ken Elks' part 2 on Japanese ammunition (page 190), it doesn't seem likely.
It appears that only the IJN used the 37mm Hotckisses, and the types shown look very different (with a very wide driving band) and have naval (anchor shaped) acceptance marks. No mention whatsoever of French manufacture...
Some of the Japanese ones are shown right here on BOCN too, in the thread: http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/japanese-hotchkiss-37mm-t37127.html?t=37127
It looks like they're standard (?) 37mm Hotchkiss projectiles, and they're definitely put into the wrong case. This type op Japanese 37mm case was equipped with standard 37mm projectiles (at least: that's what my documentation says). The Hotchkiss projectiles are also MUCH older than the cases.
As for the markings on the projectiles; the '+' like marking look familiar: I've seen similar markings on some Russian cases I have at home. Also, I have two 76.2x385R 'Ratsch-bum' cases with very bizarre headstamps: they look essentially Russian, but they also feature the notorious 'F' marking and the crossed cannons of the Osaka arsenal. Japanese manufacture for Russia? Vice versa?
Anyway, one of these cases also has this + resembling mark.
I wonder what it means....
Cheers,
Olaf