British Ordnance Collectors Network
This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
2\" mortar markings
- Thread starter Infanteer
- Start date
MissingSomething
Well-Known Member
I have a similar one. I have been looking at the rest of my 2" mortars and they are marked in a similar fashion. I believe that D.E.I.L. may be a makers code.
I have some marked:
2" MOR I MW 05 42
2" MOR I O(or U)G 7/41
2" MOR I RC (?)
2" MOR I V&W in diamond 10/41
2" MOR I MAR in circle 6-41
I have some marked:
2" MOR I MW 05 42
2" MOR I O(or U)G 7/41
2" MOR I RC (?)
2" MOR I V&W in diamond 10/41
2" MOR I MAR in circle 6-41
MissingSomething
Well-Known Member
Here is some info from another forum that I posted this question to..... still lookin for answers...
There's a book called British Small Arms of ww2, the complete reference guide to weapons, makers codes contracts 1936-46
by Ian Skennerton, selous books ISBN 0949749095. This book has a list of manufacturers that will help with the initials found on the bombs.
by Ian Skennerton, selous books ISBN 0949749095. This book has a list of manufacturers that will help with the initials found on the bombs.
Infanteer, MissingSomething,
If you can check the fins and/or other parts of the mortar there should be letters stamped or embossed thereon. If you let me know what they are I might be able to identify them and we should be able to ascertain from what part of the world they originated. The letters on the bodies are the monogram of the facility manufacturing the body. With the notable exception of cartridge cases and primers the details of the filling facility are invariably painted on.
BMG50
I've never seen Skennerton's book, any idea of how comprehensive it is? I have access to the 1946 list of monograms but notwithstanding it is an official publication it is incomplete and I've found a number of inaccuracies. However, there are well in excess of a thousand entries.
Regards
Tim.G.
If you can check the fins and/or other parts of the mortar there should be letters stamped or embossed thereon. If you let me know what they are I might be able to identify them and we should be able to ascertain from what part of the world they originated. The letters on the bodies are the monogram of the facility manufacturing the body. With the notable exception of cartridge cases and primers the details of the filling facility are invariably painted on.
BMG50
I've never seen Skennerton's book, any idea of how comprehensive it is? I have access to the 1946 list of monograms but notwithstanding it is an official publication it is incomplete and I've found a number of inaccuracies. However, there are well in excess of a thousand entries.
Regards
Tim.G.
MissingSomething
Well-Known Member
Well here are the tail marks.....
2" MOR I MW 05 42 tail - 2 FD Ltd 9 40 Z
2" MOR I O(or U)G 7/41 tail - 11 FD Ltd 1940 - 3
2" MOR I RC (?) tail - C.W.S. 1941 z & TA&S 7/41
2" MOR I V&W in diamond 10/41 tail - K 9/41 Z
2" MOR I MAR in circle 6-41 tail - 1941-9 MAR in circle
( I have 2) tail - 1941-9 MAR in circle
2" MOR I D.E.I.L. 6/43 tail - G in circle 4/45
ILLG WITH PARACHUTE IFS FEB 43 LOT 256 tail - BDC 8 42 Z
2" MOR. II Wt/C. 6/43 LOT 2361 S.R. 269 tail - PC in shield 1942 Z
This is on the top.
2" MOR I MW 05 42 tail - 2 FD Ltd 9 40 Z
2" MOR I O(or U)G 7/41 tail - 11 FD Ltd 1940 - 3
2" MOR I RC (?) tail - C.W.S. 1941 z & TA&S 7/41
2" MOR I V&W in diamond 10/41 tail - K 9/41 Z
2" MOR I MAR in circle 6-41 tail - 1941-9 MAR in circle
( I have 2) tail - 1941-9 MAR in circle
2" MOR I D.E.I.L. 6/43 tail - G in circle 4/45
ILLG WITH PARACHUTE IFS FEB 43 LOT 256 tail - BDC 8 42 Z
2" MOR. II Wt/C. 6/43 LOT 2361 S.R. 269 tail - PC in shield 1942 Z
This is on the top.
FD = Fry's Die Castings, Ltd., London
Z = Zinc Based alloy, Mazak
2 + 11 before FD, is probably the number of the die that it was cast in.
C.W.S. = C W S., Ltd. (Die casters) Birmingham.
TA&S = T. Adshead, Birmingham
K = Normally K would indicate Kynoch but mortar tails is not their kind of work if it were KA = Kaya Alloy Castings, Ltd. (Die casters), Birmingham.
MAR = no trace, but because the A is much bigger could actually be AMR or MRA but no trace on those either. Is the tail die cast or welded?
G = Not sure, we have a choice of two here; Grafton & Sons, (App.) Glacier Metal Co., Ltd., both of London
BDC = No actual listing for BDC, but if it is a die cast tail I would suggest British Die Castings Co. Ltd. Whose listed monogram is B
PC = Again no listing but there is one for PC & Co which is Paton, Calvert & Co., Ltd. Of Manchester, who are still trading and specialize in catering equipment.
S-W = Stanley Works, Ltd. (I think, if it is the same Stanley as in Stanley tools and knife then Id say yes as they would already have die casting equipment and expertise.
So from the above one would adduce they are of British manufacture, but I have no listings for the monograms.
Regards
Tim.G.
Z = Zinc Based alloy, Mazak
2 + 11 before FD, is probably the number of the die that it was cast in.
C.W.S. = C W S., Ltd. (Die casters) Birmingham.
TA&S = T. Adshead, Birmingham
K = Normally K would indicate Kynoch but mortar tails is not their kind of work if it were KA = Kaya Alloy Castings, Ltd. (Die casters), Birmingham.
MAR = no trace, but because the A is much bigger could actually be AMR or MRA but no trace on those either. Is the tail die cast or welded?
G = Not sure, we have a choice of two here; Grafton & Sons, (App.) Glacier Metal Co., Ltd., both of London
BDC = No actual listing for BDC, but if it is a die cast tail I would suggest British Die Castings Co. Ltd. Whose listed monogram is B
PC = Again no listing but there is one for PC & Co which is Paton, Calvert & Co., Ltd. Of Manchester, who are still trading and specialize in catering equipment.
S-W = Stanley Works, Ltd. (I think, if it is the same Stanley as in Stanley tools and knife then Id say yes as they would already have die casting equipment and expertise.
So from the above one would adduce they are of British manufacture, but I have no listings for the monograms.
Regards
Tim.G.
Just bought some nice 2" rounds thanks to Harry on the forum. Noticed this No:3 steel tail dated 43 has been made different than normal No:3 tails, one, it doesn't have the slight bulge at the end of the tail body, just straight. Two, there are slots in the fins. Three, there are holes in the fins. I am wondering if this tail is an early model, experimental model or used for the signal success multi star bomb that takes a 81 grain cartridge and the holes are for a secondary charge experimental or the tail is Canadian, Australian etc. I doubt it would be Dutch.
What do you guys think?
What do you guys think?
Attachments
Please ignore what I’ve written above – most of it is wrong. Seven years later - I’ve learnt a bit more
2" MOR I MW, tail - FD Ltd Z
MW – Mitcham Works, (latterly Philips Lamps)
FD = Fry's Die Castings, Ltd., London
Z = Zinc Based alloy, Mazak
2" MOR I O(or U)G, tail FD Ltd
N/k
FD = Fry's Die Castings, Ltd., London
2" MOR I RC, tail - C.W.S. Z & TA&S
RC – Raleigh Cycles?
C.W.S. = C W S., Ltd. (Die casters) Birmingham.
TA&S = T. Adshead, Birmingham
2" MOR I V&W in diamond, tail - K Z
V&W – not known.
K – not known.
2" MOR I MAR in circle, tail MAR in circle
MAR – Louis Marx, Ltd. (Toy manufacturers) Waddam’s Pool Works, Hall Street, Dudley, Worcs.
“ Marx” TN 4261 to 4264
Louis Marx was the ‘Henry Ford’ of toy manufacturing and apart from having three very big factories in the US, he had factories throughout the world including the UK. In the absence of a filling factory monongram or other details, I’m opting for the UK as country of manufacture. Examination of the ‘A’ in the trademark shows that is also an ‘X’.
2" MOR I D.E.I.L. tail - G in circle
DEIL - Dominion Electrohome Industries Ltd, Kitchener, Ontario Canada.
https://doorsclosedwaterloo.wordpress.com/electrohome/
G in circle - Galt Metal Industries, Ontario
ILLG WITH PARACHUTE IFS, tail – BDC
IFS - International Flare and Signal Company, Waterloo, P.Q.
BDC - Barber Die Castings, Ontario
2" MOR. II Wt/C. S.R. 269, tail - PC in shield
WT/C Macdonald's Chemical Co., Waterloo, Canada
S.R.269 Identifies the pyrotechnic smoke composition (CaSi, Hexachloroethane, Zinc oxide mix)
PC (in shield) Pressure Castings (Toronto), Toronto, Canada
S-W Sunshine Waterloo company ltd, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.
I notice that the cap has a lifting strap and from my limited knowledge of these items this makes it a “Bomb, Smoke 2” Bomb Thrower” not a “Bomb, ML, Smoke, 2” Mortar” – the former were for use in AFVs.
TimG
2" MOR I MW, tail - FD Ltd Z
MW – Mitcham Works, (latterly Philips Lamps)
FD = Fry's Die Castings, Ltd., London
Z = Zinc Based alloy, Mazak
2" MOR I O(or U)G, tail FD Ltd
N/k
FD = Fry's Die Castings, Ltd., London
2" MOR I RC, tail - C.W.S. Z & TA&S
RC – Raleigh Cycles?
C.W.S. = C W S., Ltd. (Die casters) Birmingham.
TA&S = T. Adshead, Birmingham
2" MOR I V&W in diamond, tail - K Z
V&W – not known.
K – not known.
2" MOR I MAR in circle, tail MAR in circle
MAR – Louis Marx, Ltd. (Toy manufacturers) Waddam’s Pool Works, Hall Street, Dudley, Worcs.
“ Marx” TN 4261 to 4264
Louis Marx was the ‘Henry Ford’ of toy manufacturing and apart from having three very big factories in the US, he had factories throughout the world including the UK. In the absence of a filling factory monongram or other details, I’m opting for the UK as country of manufacture. Examination of the ‘A’ in the trademark shows that is also an ‘X’.
2" MOR I D.E.I.L. tail - G in circle
DEIL - Dominion Electrohome Industries Ltd, Kitchener, Ontario Canada.
https://doorsclosedwaterloo.wordpress.com/electrohome/
G in circle - Galt Metal Industries, Ontario
ILLG WITH PARACHUTE IFS, tail – BDC
IFS - International Flare and Signal Company, Waterloo, P.Q.
BDC - Barber Die Castings, Ontario
2" MOR. II Wt/C. S.R. 269, tail - PC in shield
WT/C Macdonald's Chemical Co., Waterloo, Canada
S.R.269 Identifies the pyrotechnic smoke composition (CaSi, Hexachloroethane, Zinc oxide mix)
PC (in shield) Pressure Castings (Toronto), Toronto, Canada
S-W Sunshine Waterloo company ltd, Waterloo, Ontario, Canada.
I notice that the cap has a lifting strap and from my limited knowledge of these items this makes it a “Bomb, Smoke 2” Bomb Thrower” not a “Bomb, ML, Smoke, 2” Mortar” – the former were for use in AFVs.
TimG
I wonder if there was any variants between mortar rounds, such as tail fins fuzes, of the commonwealth countries apart from makers names, it seems that this Australian tail fin of mine has holes which may accommodated a secondary charge, maybe experimental or was this the norm, part of the stamping manufacture process. As with smoke bombs vehicle thrown bombs had shorter ranges producing smoke immediately with a lighter propellant cartridge. Normal smoke had a delay which started to emit smoke on its descent downwards rather from the position of where it was fired so as to not give the mortar position away depending on the range and the angle fired.
There was a problem with the gas pressure generated by the Mk 1 47 grain Ballistite primary cartridge and aluminium tails, so only 24 hole aluminium tails were permitted with this mark of cartridge. The same thing applied with the 55 grain Ballistite Mk 1 cartridge, with steel tails as well, but the numbers were not great so this was considered acceptable. However, this was in temperate climates. I would not be at all surprised if in hot climates e.g. Australia, Canadian summer etc. if someone decided to remove the cartridge add some extra holes and refit the cartridge.
Has anyone heard of this?
The lifting becket was present on 2" smoke and 2" bomb thrower. The 2" bomb thrower was superseded during WW2 by fitting a Grenade No 80 WP discharger to AFVs. This gave an immediate burst of smoke which was superior to the slow build up of screening smoke generated a 2" bomb. A 2" WP bomb was produced for the bomb thrower, but this was discontinued in favour of a dedicated grenade discharger, electrically operated. The Grenade No 80 WP was in turn superseded by the Grenade No 81 Smoke which had a two part effect. It gave an instant White Phosphorous burst, but the second stage produced screening smoke which kept the initial cloud going for longer. These changes made the lifting becket redundant and it was not fitted to smoke bombs once the grenade dischargers were in large scale use. They were kept for longer on the 2" bomb thrower for those AFVs which still had the old dischargers fitted.
I saw SR 269 mentioned, which in later bombs would become SR269M. There were also other SR compositions as well as PN compositions. Are there any other stencillings e.g. DD(L) numbers etc?
Has anyone heard of this?
The lifting becket was present on 2" smoke and 2" bomb thrower. The 2" bomb thrower was superseded during WW2 by fitting a Grenade No 80 WP discharger to AFVs. This gave an immediate burst of smoke which was superior to the slow build up of screening smoke generated a 2" bomb. A 2" WP bomb was produced for the bomb thrower, but this was discontinued in favour of a dedicated grenade discharger, electrically operated. The Grenade No 80 WP was in turn superseded by the Grenade No 81 Smoke which had a two part effect. It gave an instant White Phosphorous burst, but the second stage produced screening smoke which kept the initial cloud going for longer. These changes made the lifting becket redundant and it was not fitted to smoke bombs once the grenade dischargers were in large scale use. They were kept for longer on the 2" bomb thrower for those AFVs which still had the old dischargers fitted.
I saw SR 269 mentioned, which in later bombs would become SR269M. There were also other SR compositions as well as PN compositions. Are there any other stencillings e.g. DD(L) numbers etc?
Last edited:
AE501,
Thanks for correcting me on the becket. The only diagrams I had showing it, were for the Bomb Thrower. I thought that common sense would dictate that there would be a standard design. However, logic and manufacturing decisions are not necessarily mutually inclusive.
TimG ,
Thanks for correcting me on the becket. The only diagrams I had showing it, were for the Bomb Thrower. I thought that common sense would dictate that there would be a standard design. However, logic and manufacturing decisions are not necessarily mutually inclusive.
TimG ,