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WW1 German 77mm mystery.

H

HoldThePickle24

Member
Hi folks. I have had this 77m shell for a few years now and it never looked right, as you can see. IMG_1905.jpeg

I recently soaked it kroil for quite a while and was able to get the fuze off finally, as well as the adapter.
IMG_1903.jpeg
I’ve been diving into the thing the last few days and have identified the shells as a their “universal shell” IMG_1915.jpegIMG_1916.jpeg

So it turns out the shell used the KZ 11 fuze and the one fitted in mine was a KZ 14. So I guess it’s not really a “mystery”, but does anyone know if this combo was actually used, or is this just a complete mismatch? Both fuzes have the same thread diameter and apparently fit the same adapter fine. Being that the fuze is all steel, it leads me to think it may have been from later in the war when resources were getting tight for Germany. I’m wondering if they may have fitted the fuze in this shell if that’s what they had available or something. I’d like to confirm that though, rather than just making stuff up or assuming.
 
Kz11 is the correct fuze.
Maybe your Kz14 came from a fired shell and maybe a little bit deformed.
 
Made in 1915 and with flat nose it can't be steel. Think it's bad condition brass.

But still a bit strange why the thread fits but the fuze diameter is to large. I think MINENAZ16's explanation is right because the top cap is also heavily deformated.
 
It’s definitely all steel - all the same pitted surface, some rust, and a magnet aggressive sticks to all of it. I’d know if it was brass and it is not.
It isn’t really *that* deformed. It just the very top cap has a bit of a dent. I reached out to a collector that had a nice example of a KZ 11 fuze and had him measure the thread diameter and it was 53mm, same as this KZ 14.

When you guys are talking about it being deformed, do you mean that maybe it’s smooshed outward and that’s why it is sticking out beyond the adapter??
 

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Apologies, I was wrong about the 1914 fuze models. Other models came much later in steel, but for the 1914 fuzes (HZ14, KZ14, Gr.Z.14) first steel prototypes were already invented (not introduced) in December 1914. The Steel K.Z.14 was initially named K.Z.15 E (see drawing) and had a one-piece fuze body. But as your example shows they introduced the steel KZ.14 without changing the name and without changing it's shape.

What's the diameter of your K.Z.14. And can you show good pictures of the the adapter ring with the fuze thread visible? The K.Z.14 and K.Z.11 have the same thread size and same diameter.

I think now I see your fuze has the designation "K.Z.14 E". With E=Eisen=iron.
 

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Sure! The widest part of my KZ 14 is around 67mm on the spot. Here are some pics of the adapter too.
 

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The adapter is fine, but the detonator diameter is usually 65mm (like the KZ11 family). It is now clearly visible that your detonator comes from an exploded shell. Remnants of the destroyed internal parts and also parts of the gaine are still there. In this condition, the detonator thread is also usually much too large in diameter to be screwed into the thread of the shell. If you remove the dirt from the fuze thread, you may find that the diameter of the detonator thread has been reduced by filing or turning. Also notice the various hammer marks around. And as MINENAZ16 already said - it's not the right fuze for this shell. The KZ14 was used in normal HE shells like the K.Gr.14, K.Gr.15.

But it is still an interesting object. German iron fuzes from WWI with readable markings are not that common. Probably also because they are not that interesting to many collectors due to their poorer condition compared to brass fuzes.
 
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Truth be told, a lot (certainly not all) of the hammer marks around the outer edge are actually vise imprints and are from me struggling to remove the fuze. I hate to cause damage like that, but I knew something wasn’t right with that fuze being on that shell and wanted it off.
I figured the fuze was blown or a battlefield pickup because the shell it self was fired. But are you saying that the increased diameter of the fuze is due to it mushrooming out a bit from impact or whatever??
Now I’m on the hunt for a KZ 11 fuze…. which seems awfully hard to come by. :-/ Have any leads on where a guy could find one??
 
The mushrooming (nice word :) ) isn't from the impact but caused by the explosion. And yes a K.Z.11 (not a K.Z.11 Gr.) is hard to find
 
I admit the possibility I might be wrong here, but, it looks to me to be a model 1916 shrapnel projectile and not the universal shell. This projectile (the 1916 shrapnel) has the larger fuze adapter that looks very much like the Universal shell diagram shown but is smaller in diameter at the mouth. Try fitting a Dopp Z/96 T&P fuze into the adapter if you have one.
 
The fuze shown in this photo is in an adapter (the blue painted part) for the model 1896 Shrapnel projectile. It needs to be removed (if possible). The aluminum fuze and I presume threads have oxidized so this may be rather difficult to remove. Measure the diameter of the base of the aluminum fuze and then compare it to the diameter of the mouth of the adapter in your projectile.
 
o_O I can’t believe I didn’t notice that little adapter on there. Embarrassing. My buddy’s shrapnel shell has an adapter that’s like 30mm wide on his Dopp Z 96, so I didn’t even notice this skinny thing. Anyway, I’ll try to get it off, which will probably be near impossible. However I have another partial fuze I think that I can at least check for fit. I’ll let you know how it goes.
 
The Dopp.Z.96 or 96 n/A has a 45,8 mm thread while the K.Z.11 or K.Z.14 use the 55 mm thread. And it's clearly to see, that your adapter ring has the 55 mm thread too. So it makes no sense to try to fit the Dopp.Z. 96 in this shell, it won't fit.

And even if you had a Feldschrapnell 96 umg. (it wasn't named "model 1916") your Dopp.Z.96 would remain the wrong fuze as it needs a Dopp.Z.96 /A. The Feldschrapnell 96 umg. shares the same body as the Feldkanonengeschoss 11 but the adapter ring was different. Your Dopp.Z.96 is for the oldest type Feldschrapnell 96
 
HoldThePickle24 said:
Hi folks. I have had this 77m shell for a few years now and it never looked right, as you can see. View attachment 200577

I recently soaked it kroil for quite a while and was able to get the fuze off finally, as well as the adapter.
View attachment 200578
I’ve been diving into the thing the last few days and have identified the shells as a their “universal shell” View attachment 200581View attachment 200582

So it turns out the shell used the KZ 11 fuze and the one fitted in mine was a KZ 14. So I guess it’s not really a “mystery”, but does anyone know if this combo was actually used, or is this just a complete mismatch? Both fuzes have the same thread diameter and apparently fit the same adapter fine. Being that the fuze is all steel, it leads me to think it may have been from later in the war when resources were getting tight for Germany. I’m wondering if they may have fitted the fuze in this shell if that’s what they had available or something. I’d like to confirm that though, rather than just making stuff up or assuming.
Click to expand...
Well i personally found it with kz 11
 

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