WW1 French 47mm

[FNG61]

WW1 French 47mm round. The headstamp is; 47.R. MA.1.1.6-16 r in a circle , flaming bomb. On the shell, between the driving bands are the marks; D. S in a C (or a circle) flaming bomb. Above the top driving band are the marks; 362.Sp.12.17. The fuze parts are unmarked. Suspicious this is an aircraft round but would like to learn the facts. Feedback is welcomed.

 

[dano1917]

Hi FNG61, Nice shell. I was not aware of a 47mm French WW1 round so i'm afraid I can't help on ID but just wanted to comment. I figure it must be kind of rare........Dano

 

[moondoggy]

Looks similar to a WWI French 37mm anti-balloon round without the weep holes. I would guess the larger size would be for aircraft. Nice round!
Mike

 

[Hoeksel]

I do have a French WW2 dated case measuring 47x139R60 (very hard to find, like yours!), which is for the Mle1934 AFV but also mentioned as a Hotchkiss revolving gun (website Tony Williams and Big Bore Ammunition). Tony mentions "C19", if he means Construction 1919 your case is earlier.

Your case is "47 R", where R = Revolver, so I would say it is for the 47 mm Hotchkiss Revolver gun, not for aircraft.

 

[kz11gr]

Hi

:tinysmile_eyebrow_t

It's a rare round .

==

 

[Gspragge]

Indeed

This was used in aircraft, the fuze is a Marine Double action type used on 37mm and 47mm. I will attach some images. Cannon from a restored Voisin, also mounted on Seaplanes. You are Very lucky to have found this.

(the cases are all marked R for revolving cannon, but this projectile is too long for those. It is specific to these cannon as shown)

 

[Hoeksel]

Wow, never heard of this 47 mm aircraft gun! What a great find!!

 

[FNG61]

This was used in aircraft, the fuze is a Marine Double action type used on 37mm and 47mm. I will attach some images. Cannon from a restored Voisin, also mounted on Seaplanes. You are Very lucky to have found this.

(the cases are all marked R for revolving cannon, but this projectile is too long for those. It is specific to these cannon as shown)

Thanks for the thorough information. Would the base fuze for this shell be the same as in the base fuzed 37s?

 

[Gspragge]

What is the hole size in the base

It likely had a tracer element (18mm threaded hole), or a base plate/plug, but I think the former. If the hole is 22mm then likely the base plug. I don't think these were double fuzed.
But let me know and I will double check.

 

[FNG61]

It likely had a tracer element (18mm threaded hole), or a base plate/plug, but I think the former. If the hole is 22mm then likely the base plug. I don't think these were double fuzed.
But let me know and I will double check.

Threaded base opening appears to be 16.5mm.

 

[FNG61]

Here's a 1915 painting of a Voisin with a cannon on it. The caption claims it's a 47mm. Also is a picture of a 37mm equiped Voisin. Found the photo, unattributed source, in my archives, so appologies if it is your picture.
It speaks alot for the Voisin that it was able to carry a 47mm cannon when with so many other aircraft they were having to strip Lewis guns and drill holes in the Maxims (used to fire the early incendiary ammo) to save weight. And isnt a 47mm HE shell kind of overkill for most aerial adversaries? And how would that gun hanging out there affect flying abilty?

 

[charley777]

WW1 French 47mm round. The headstamp is; 47.R. MA.1.1.6-16 r in a circle , flaming bomb. On the shell, between the driving bands are the marks; D. S in a C (or a circle) flaming bomb. Above the top driving band are the marks; 362.Sp.12.17. The fuze parts are unmarked. Suspicious this is an aircraft round but would like to learn the facts. Feedback is welcomed.

Hello...what a great round! So are the case dimensions 47x139R with a rim of 60mm?
Just to clarify....thanks

 

[Gspragge]

I think the case

is the same as those EOC 47mm rounds made for Japan that litter the UK. Just the markings differ. I don't have any 47mm to measure. The cases are the same as the Hotchkiss R.C. types but these "D" projectiles are a modern aerodynamic design and are longer. They are meant for ground attack generally but are issued with fabric sensitive fuzes for air to air firing. The one in this posting has a fuze used for ground targets. I believe these were sent to the U.S. after the war (WW1) for testing and this is likely one of those.

 

[2pounder]

47mm French

Reading this post I looked at my couple of 47x 130R cases, one has typical EOC Japanese markings and the other has E in a circle twice, a shallow groove around the primer cap and has 3 long crimps about 3mm down from the top of the neck. It came with an inert common pointed shell having the Japanese type anchor stamp on the copper driving band. The shell groove does not line up with the crimps. What have I got put together? 2pr

 

[charley777]

Thanks Gordon..but i keep looking at the original photo in this posting and comparing the case to a regular 47x130R i find that the neck looks longer...maybe about 9mm longer ? Any comments from anyone?

 

[Burney Davis]

Thanks Gordon..but i keep looking at the original photo in this posting and comparing the case to a regular 47x130R i find that the neck looks longer...maybe about 9mm longer ? Any comments from anyone?

You are absolutely correct - 8mm difference I believe. They are different cases as the primer in the 2 1/2 pounder boat gun is larger than that of the French 47mm case of this round.

D

 

[Hoeksel]

I found a comparable case but without any headstamp. The case is 47x145,7R61,6. Is that the same case as in this thread?

 

[charley777]

This 47x146R x61.6 is different to the 47x139R x60
My listing of this case is a mystery to me (well i have not yet investigated it).
I quote :-

47mm Dzialko piechoty wz1925 , Dzialko czolgowe wz1935 More info gratefully received (i presume it is Polish ??)

 

[Hoeksel]

Interesting, any idea what the reference for the case dimensions is? The 47 mm wz1925 is indeed Polish AT....I will look into it. Thanks for the information!

 

[charley777]

http://amunicja1945.pl was where i got the information as quoted above. However i cannot seem to find it now.
Here's a copy part of a list (the 47x186R Vickers wz E sounds also interesting) from that site....