Wesley Richards No.1 Carbine

[kaskowiski]

I have come across a few brass shells marked Wesley Richards No.1 Carbine. I understand these were .450 and mainly used for hunting. Can anyone provide further information on when they were introduced and when they became redundant and common use in between. The four cases I have all appear to have been cut just behind the bullet with pliers of some sort presuembley to extract the lead for other uses. Would this be a dangerous process?

 

[TonyE]

The Westley Richards No.1 Carbine round appeared during the 1870s and was chambered in their falling block rifles using the Deeley & Edge patents. Charge was 55 grains of black powder with a 380 grain lead paper patched bullet.

The rifles and ammunition did not achieve any great military interest but saw some sporting use, probably up until around the turn of the century.

Attached is a packet label from my collection.


Regards
TonyE

 

[kaskowiski]

Thanks for the info Tony. Those dates fit with the age of the site they came from. Forgive my ignorance but when was black powder phased out for rifle cartridges. Also what is a lead paper patched bullet?
kind regards
Ken

 

[Jimiles]

Ken,
Here is a picture of a Westley-Richards .500/450 No.1 Carbine load which was made for military use. The manufacturer of this cartridge is generally believed to be Kynoch and it was made on contract for Romania in 1881 where it was designated '.45" m/79 Roumanian Carbine"
Jim

 

[TonyE]

Thanks for the info Tony. Those dates fit with the age of the site they came from. Forgive my ignorance but when was black powder phased out for rifle cartridges. Also what is a lead paper patched bullet?
kind regards
Ken

Jim's post above illustrates the lead paper patched bullet.

The lead bullet was wrapped with a paper patch which when fired helped seal the bore and also prevent leading of the barrel.

Regards
TonyE

 

[kaskowiski]

Thanks Jimiles and Tony - great information - I have hopefully uploaded a photo of the head stamp which is quite badly corroded but you can just make out Wesley Richards Carbine No.1.

 

[ydnum303]

Hi All,

With regard to Jim's post, I am not sure that these rounds with the headstamp he shows were ever military. A collector friend of mine who is very knowledgeable, and a long-term member of ECRA has told me of a packet of cartridges he has, marked "10 Solid Brass Cartridges for Westley Richards No.1 Carbine, Case 1 In Long, Powder 55 Grains, Bullet 380 Grains. Made by Kynoch, Birmingham" Inside the packet were 10 rounds with headstamps similar to Jim's, but with 4 different dates, namely 80 10, 80 11, 80 12, and 81 1. This packet was obviously commercial, and my friend told me that Kynoch had had a contract for the Roumanian Peabody ammunition, and for some reason ended up with a lot of surplus cases, so used them for all sorts of other calibres, some of which such as the No.1 Carbine involved shortening the cases.

As far as I am aware, there was no contract to specifically make a round for military use with this case size and headstamp, although I am open to being proved wrong!


Regards,

Roger.

 

[Jimiles]

Thanks for that Roger. As a collector of military cartridges ONLY that wasn't what I wanted to hear but that's definitely good information. I have to wonder though where the designation 'm/79' came from if these weren't intended for military use?
Jim

 

[TonyE]

Jim

I think the point Roger was making was that the "M79" applied to the original cases for the Roumanian Peabody and that the headstamp remained after they were cut down to make WR No.1 Carbines cases.

Hope to see you Sunday,
Regards
TonyE

 

[Jimiles]

Yep, got it now. Thanks Tony. Unfortunately I can't make it on Sunday as we're in the process of moving house to north Wales. This'll be the first ECRA meeting that I've missed in about 10 years; delighted to be moving, gutted to be missing the meeting!
Jim