War Office Photo

[Bonnex]

Ever since Peter Scott found the black and white photograph below in a bundle of prints it has remained a favourite. It is, in my humble opinion, an inspiration to any grenade collector (and I was one of those, fortunate enough to have nearly all of those on show). Long nights sitting in the shed in my old Service Dress surrounded by Todhunter's collection.

The 18Pr on his desk is, I believe, the one on my desk shown in two snaps below.

 

[Snufkin]

Thank you for sharing both the WO photo and the 18pr images Norman. Is that the Col. HW Todhunter, of Dept of Munitions Design fame?

Probably fair to say he would have been honoured and proud to know that his collection was taken and nurtured to what it ultimately became under your custodianship.




Tom.

 

[Bonnex]

Thanks Tom. Peter thought it might be Col H W Todhunter but was not able to be sure. The location he put down as Cornwall House in Stamford Street. Do you have a Min of Mun List to check which building Todhunter was in at the end of the war.

A nice commemorative piece from Chilwell.

 

[Snufkin]

The September 1918 list of staff and duties has Lt Col. Todhunter (and Dept of Munitions Design) in Whitehall Place, behind the Old War Office building. The photo shows sleeve rank of a full Colonel, so mostly likely post war and maybe some other location.

The 18pr in its original colours is glorious.


Edit: Todhunter was promoted to Colonel with seniority from January 1921, gazetted April 1924.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/32929/page/3300


Tom.

 

[Bonnex]

Very many thanks Tom. Much obliged.

Re the shell, I was about to lend it to a friend for a talk to Schoolchildren on the subject of women working in the National Factories. I think I will dig out something else.

 

[Gspragge]

What does the green band indicate ? I have one with such a colour band over yellow turned khaki possibly
by being varnished over ? Made by C.F. & M. Co. , possibly a U.S. firm, does any one know this firm ?

 

[TimG]

If the ampersand is in the wrong place, it could be Canadian Fairbanks-Morse & Co., Ltd. - http://vintagemachinery.org/mfgindex/detail.aspx?id=4795. (They are actually listed as a supplier, but of what, is not shown)

Another possibility is Canton Foundry & Machine Co. OH. (nothing known)

I'll check my other lists later.

TimG

 

[Snufkin]

What does the green band indicate ?

Green band on its own was a filling of 80/20 amatol, although the fraction was sometimes stencilled below the band. If the amatol was of different proportions (e.g. 60/40) the fraction was definitely stencilled below the band. If the shell was filled trotyl (TNT) the green band was over printed TROTYL.




Tom.

 

[Bonnex]

Gordon,

The Green Band indicated that the shell is filled Trotyl or Amatol. If Amatol, the ratio of ammonium nitrate to Trotyl is stencilled below the green band (eg 80 over 20). If filled Trotyl the word TROTYL was stencilled in black on the green band. Other markings were possible but these are the markings specified in 1917 and 1918.

 

[Bonnex]

Sorry Tom, it takes me so long to type up a few words, hence the apparent duplicate information.

 

[Snufkin]

Norman, it's good to have it confirmed that I was on the right track.

Probably worth adding that anyone referring to the widely available Treatise of Ammunition 1915 are not going to find much about amatol, as the various mixtures were developed and adopted after its publication.

 

[Bonnex]

Quite so Tom.

For those that look out for such things:

Of very marginal use is the Addendum to the Treatise of Ammunition 1917/18.
Two editions (1917 and 1918) of the "Explanatory List of Service Markings" are very informative.
Also "Notes on Naval Ammunition 1917".

 

[Gspragge]

The Canton provenance is likely correct as the projectile came out of the U.S.
Thanks for the useful comments.