Vickers 1 1/2 pdr questions

[stuff]

I have a few Vickers 1 1/2 pdr, I have a couple of questions about these two.

The first one is what projectile is this? The drive band and limited markings indicate it is genuine but I think it is a dummy fuse.

The second projectile I would like to know what pattern of fuse would be used in this projectile?

 

[MINENAZ16]

You can try a No 121 on the second.

 

[Vasco Da Gama]

I would support Minenaz16’s view that a Number 121 fuze would work for both. Pictured is an example in my collection, sadly not as in as good condition as yours! The projectile length is 110mm and the mouth diameter is 31mm, hope this helps.

 

[stuff]

I would support Minenaz16’s view that a Number 121 fuze would work for both. Pictured is an example in my collection, sadly not as in as good condition as yours! The projectile length is 110mm and the mouth diameter is 31mm, hope this helps.

Thank you Vasco Da Gama & Minenaz16’s I have a spare 121 fuse and will fit it to the projectile.

I hate Frankenstein pieces where various parts are thrown together just because they fit.

I am still looking for any information / observation on the brass plug in the first round. It is well made and old but doesn’t conform to the 121 fuse profile.

Any help welcome.

 

[Alan1]

I agree with Minenaz16 and Vasco D G that a No 121 would be correct for the 11/2 pr; also used on 2pr, both for Naval service.
Here are a couple of interesting 11/2 pr cartridges, both Mk 111 and both dated 1918, very early in this Mark's service.
the engraving round the driving band reads "ZEEBRUGGE APRIL 23 1918 HMS VINDICTIVE" and these are a rare surviver and reminder of a quite extraordinary action of the Great War. Eleven Victoria Crosses were won by those who took part in this most daring of raids. Poor old Vindictive got a tremendous pasting, but made it back to Dover and was later sunk as a blockship elsewhere. The courage of those who took part is legendary. Alan1.

 

[SG500]

I believe the fuze shown in the first pic can also be used as well as the 121. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not too up on these older rounds.

Dave.

 

[MINENAZ16]

I believe the fuze shown in the first pic can also be used as well as the 121. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not too up on these older rounds.

Dave.

Thanks for sharing. No 120 fuze.

 

[Vasco Da Gama]

I cannot be certain on this, but it is my belief the 1 1/2 pounder guns which armed HMS Vindictive at Zeebrugge used the smaller 123mm length case designed for a Pom-Pom type weapon rather than the longer case (190mm) used in the Coventry Ordnance Works (COW) Mk111 gun which was designed for aircraft use. I would be surprised if the Royal Navy used such a long barrelled weapon on a ship, very difficult to manoeuvre.
This thought process is supported by a souvenir piece in my collection, the plate claims the cases came from HMS Vindictive, both were of the 123mm variety (as pictured), a gun initially designed for the naval use. The 123mm cases usually carry the N marking for Naval use which the COW cases (pictured for comparison) do not.
Happy to be educated!

 

[Alan1]

Greetings to V D G, and pleased to see that he, too, has relics of the Zeebrugge raid.
Before I go any further, I ought to correct my original post. Three of the Victoria Crosses I mentioned were in fact awarded for the Ostend action, originally planned as part of the Zeebrugge raid, but postponed for a few days due to weather.
And I show h/w a pic of the bases of three 1 1/2 pr cases, the two on the left without primers are for the Zeebrugge shells, the other a control example.
Poor tho' my photography is, it can be seen that one case is a Mk 11, and the other is a Mk111 but both from 1918. The Mk 11 is clearly marked with an N, the other is not.
I read absolutely nothing into this fact - I long ago recognised that Occam's Razor was best applied in all circumstances, and as the cases came with the shells, and had been together for a very long time indeed, I have absolutely no doubt but they are original to the shells and were at Zeebrugge together.
I have also tracked down a sketch of HMS Vindictive rigged for special service, and she shipped not only Stokes mortars, but flamethrowers as well, these written "Flammenwerfer" in the sketch, some 16 Lewis guns and no less than 5 1 1/2 pr "Pom Poms", two in the reinforced fighting top and three along the deck, as well as other exotica such as a 7.5in howitzer. The term "Pom Pom" is more properly applicable to the 1pr Vickers gun, but clearly here used colloquially.
As to the COW gun being used in Naval service, I can find no proof either way, but I have to say that I do find a bit odd V D G's comment about the long barrel being difficult to manoeuvre - it was certainly difficult when mounted in an aircraft and Woodman records that when installed in a DH4 rear cockpit the breech nearly fouled on the floor, and the pilot had to aim through an improvised sight and signal the observer to fire it - space on board ship must have been luxurious by comparison.
As to the COW gun appearing on Vindictive, it may or may not be a coincidence that Wing Commander Frank Brock, RNAS and subsequently - just - RAF, was part of the crew. He organised the smoke cover etc, and, alas, was killed fighting (with cutlasses!) on the Mole. And such operations make use of all sorts of odd bits of kit.
Alan1.

 

[TimG]

Even by the standards of the day Brock was a 'character'. He is possibly unique in that he held a commission in all three services. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Arthur_Brock however, it fails to mention he also did some work for the security services.

H.M.S. Vindictive - Zeebrugge Raid configuration

• 4 × BL 6-inch Mk VII naval guns
• 1 x 11-inch howitzer
• 2 x 7.5-inch howitzers
• 2 x static flamethrowers
• 8 x 1 1/2-pounder 'pom poms'
• 16 x Lewis guns
• 16 x Stokes mortars

H.M.S. Vindictive after the action - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_V...ollowing_the_Zeebrugge_Raid_(27443396633).jpg

TimG

 

[Alan1]

Mny thnks to Tim for his useful post re Vindictive and her armament status for Zeebrugge. The sketch I saw was probably based on early thoughts and, in any case, showed only the port side of the ship.
Alan1

 

[Vasco Da Gama]

I offer the information below just for interest, we are all entitled to our view.
The COW gun was a very different beast to the earlier 1.5 pounder, being fed from the top in 5 round clips rather than belt fed through the side. Development of the COW was slow and it was not until August 1917 that the Mk111 gun was ordered. The RAF ordered 250, the Admiralty ordered 50, but cancelled their order in May 1918. Sadly by August 1918 only 14 had been delivered, I would offer these went to the RAF as the Admiralty had cancelled its order. By the end of WW1 only 76 guns had been completed. For me I cannot see how such a rare beast would have been allocated to HMS Vindictive, far more likely would be surplus 1.5 pounder Naval Pom-Poms, especially as the ship was highly likely to be lost.
In terms of the COW gun cases pictured I would read the base markings differently on the left hand example. The stamps show a Mk2 case for the Mk3 gun, a rare one, I have only found Mk3 cases as illustrated by the centre and right hand example. Interesting that it carries a Naval N marking. My understanding is there was never a Mk2 COW gun taken into service.
Again my understanding is by 1918 the main objective for the COW gun was for an anti-U Boat weapon, designed to be fitted in the nose of a flying boat on a flexible mount, most of the gun being out in front, there are some pictures of one fitted to a Blackburn Perth. There is some evidence that in the early stages it was considered as an air to air anti Zeppelin weapon, a HE round with the super sensitive No 131 fuze is describe. Between the wars it was looked at as an air to air weapon, but proved far to unwieldy for the task. There are some great pictures of the Vickers F29/27 aircraft designed around the gun, a rival was the Westland F29/27, both had the gun fixed to fire obliquely forward.

 

[Vasco Da Gama]

Picture of the Vickers F29/27 for interest.