Unknown German Kriegsmarine case

[Hoeksel]

I have seen several, but the actual use of this case is still unclear. Maybe on BOCN it is possible to verify for once what is the use of this case!

First the facts:

Case dimensions are 80x159R86 with a 7.5 mm thick rim (the canelure at the mouth is original).
Materials: cases are found in brass and steel and have brass or steel C/12 nA primers (they have a large primer charge inside the case, so different than normal C/12 nA primers).
Other: I have heard the case contains black powder and is closed with a cellophane and a string in the canelure. The box for these cases is made of aluminum and contains 12 brass cases. The source also mentions a aluminum box with 6 steel cases, but for me it is unclear if this is a full box or a half full box.
Year of manufacture: earliest seen by me is 1926, latest 1943 (Kriegsmarine marked).
Use: by Kriegsmarine, although most have no Kriegsmarine Abnahme.
Verified source for the "device": from a Zerstrer of the 1934 Class (Z-1 Lebrecht Maass o Z-3 Max Schultz) and the boxes with cases have been found in the East sea.

Thought on the use of these cases are:
- Depth charge.
- Torpedo charge for surface firing (http://www.vierte-flottille.de/sechsteflottille/viewtopic.php?f=95&t=788).
- Torpedo tube clearance cartridge.

Questions:
- Does anybody have an official document describing these cases?
- Does anybody recognize the firing device?
- What is the use of this case?
- What does "G" mean on the cases?

I have 2 brass cases in my collection (1 for trade), I am still looking for a steel case!

 

[genkideskan]

Hello,

yes it is a propelling cartridge for torpedo tubes. Steel and brass cases are known - steel laquered and copper washed. I guess they didnt use black powder - not very suiteable in navy use. May b a special nitro powder load - producing a slow but big gas blast. See the flashtube design. Uppermost a compressed air system was used on the ships. This was an emergency system.
S- Boot, Destroyer and Cruiser torpedo tubes and bundles using this system. The last device is the chamber and breech system. The firing stuff is missing. Sorry no documents so far, I add an pic of an very similar cartridge system used on british and US destroyers.

 

[Hoeksel]

I got some information from another good ammo forum, WK2ammo.com. Here is the link (probably only works for registered members):
http://www.wk2ammo.com/showthread.php?p=31160#post31160

Here is the answer that clarifies the use of the case:

German surface fired torpedo's were fired with compressed air; as a backup, a second system was installed which fired the torpedo using powder as propellant, in this system, a case was used as shown in the picture.
The cases were available with 2 different charges: 600 and 850 grams.
The remaining space inside the case was filled with cardboard and the case was closed with a transparant piece of plastic which was wrapped around the mouth of the case and secured with a piece of wire, hence the groove.

 

[Hoeksel]

Thanks to LT we now have a visual on the firing device and the official name!!!! This is from a Norwegian museum from a land based torpedo firing device. The German name is Pulver Aussto Vorrichtung (PAV). The other pictures show the same device.

 

[Natter]

Thanks to LT we now have a visual on the firing device and the official name!!!! This is from a Norwegian museum from a land based torpedo firing device. The German name is Pulver Aussto Vorrichtung (PAV). The other pictures show the same device.

The museum you mention is the Herdla torpedobattery outside Bergen (ex-german "Torpedosperrbatterie Hjelte", in service with the norwegian coastal artillery until 2001, with several major modifications in the 60's, 70's 80's and 90's).
The original german configuration was a drillingrohr from a cruiser. This was split up and mounted in fixed positions with a fourth tube in the late 1970's (the battery front was covered by a thick concrete wall, and the tubes were equipped with pneumatic operated steelhatches).
In the late 90's the tubes were removed and replaced by two tunnels for underwater launch of the torpedoes. The two photos you posted (they look very similar to photos I have taken myself - where did you find them?) shows the aft (one of three) section of the remaining tube we have kept. The battery opened officially as a museum in may 2013 Open for guided tours only in the summerseason, but it is possible to arrange visits if you contact Herdla Museum ( http://www.museumvest.no/index.php?action=static&id=329 / http://www.museumvest.no/index.php?action=static&id=35 ). We might get another tube from the coastal artillery museum at Oscarsborg (originally installed at Korshavn torpedobattery outside Narvik).

Regarding the PAV's: I think powder-launch was the primary firing methods on some ships without air-compressors (S-Boote..?). I can confirm the info you put up (perhaps you have visited the norwegian coastal-artillery forum where we had a discussion on this a couple of years back?). We did have these as back-up in the torpedobatteryes for the full life-span of the german torpedotubes (ie: until 1992), and as far as I can remember, the original Kriegsmarine-steelcases contained 12 shells (3x4). Initially 2 x 600g were used, but later on only 1 x 850g was to be used in case the primary method (compressed air) wasn't available. It was nn fun using this, as the powder generated huge amount of smoke in the torpedohall after firing, and of course the torpedoes also were covered with powder-residue that made the post-launch routines more messy as well.

I remember having some fun with the redundant 600g shells, as we emptied them for powder and set it on fire: As suggested above, they burned with high intensity for a relativly short time). I'm not sure of the type of powder, but it was shaped in small square pieces (approx 1x1x0,5cm, stocked inside the shell (I still have one of those shells in very nice condition - only the powder and the transparent plastic cover missing).

 

[Natter]

Not directly related to the topic, but I just stumbled upon this document when sorting some pdf-files on my harddrive:

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u...ng an Torpedoausstoßrohren (TI 15.6.1942).pdf