Unidentified gun and cartridge

[Doug]

Hi

This is an unknown cartridge from the Army Museum in Halifax. This started out as a "what is this device" with a rifled bore of 1.000 inches. The breech mechanism seems to screw onto the base of the (gun?). Subsequently the museum found a cartridge that exactly fits the breech and may/may not be related to it. The gun has no really revealing markings. Its overall length is 936 mm with breech attached.

This is the comment from the museum volunteer: From what we can see, the first shell, (181, 184, & 185) with the all lead projectile, does not seem to have been fired. It has been deactivated, apparently by removal of the screw-in primer. The projectile appears to have been filed on both sides, as if someone wanted to put it in a vise and try to remove it from the brass case. The crimp and three peen marks are all intact, as you can see from the photo. The base of this shell has the following data stamped on it: The numbers 19, 35, 2 and the Roman Numeral II. There are also the letters DAC and the letter C appears to have a Broad Arrow or similar marking. The rim of the case measures 1.219", the case above the rim measures 1.096" and the from end of the case measures 1.042". The overall length case and the projectile is 5".

Any help appreciated. ID of the device also appreciated.

Thanks

Doug

 

[2pounder]

What you have appears to be an aiming rifle barrel minus adaptor at the breech end to fit in a larger calibre gun for training and practice. The two rounds are 1 inch calibre the first with the lead bullet is for the aiming rifle and from the markings could be Canadian manufacture, and the second with the brass jacketed iron or steel projectile is for the 1 inch machine gun. There has been a lot of posts on these 3 items and may I suggest that know you know what they are you try various searches on this site by putting in 1in, 1 inch, aiming etc.

 

[TonyE]

Forgive me, but I have to say that I am amazed that an Army Museum could not identify an Aiming Rifle and the ammunition that goes with it. A quick look in any British military "Treatise on Ammunition" from the 1880s to WW2 would have identified the ammunition and given a very good idea on the barrel.

The markings indicate that the round was made by Dominion Arsenal (DAC) and the "arrow within C" is the standard property mark of the Canadian government. It was made in 1935 and is a Cordite Mark II round.

Is this perhaps because military museums these days have fewer military historians and more professional museum people?

Regards
TonyE

 

[jonnyc]

Ouch!!!!!!

 

[Doug]

Be nice Tony.

I certainly cannot speak for the Halifax Army Museum where this originated, but I have been volunteering at the Canadian War Museum for a long time. The CWM has one person who is the collections manager for all army, navy and air force equipment, except uniforms and medals. One person - no paid assistant - if something has to be moved, he drives the fork lift. Consider the breadth of knowledge needed to handle that. I have 35 years as a gunner and an EME officer (REME if you are British) and help out one day a week, and he continues to astound me with his knowledge of obscure items, but sometimes we need the assistance of someone who knows one topic extremely well. I have been working on the 3,000 plus items of their artillery ammunition collection off and on for five years, and have put many queries on this forum, most of which have been answered, BUT some of which remain unidentified...

Thinking back to last Tuesday at the museum, I was working on 20-mm guns, aircraft bombs, No 19 radio sets, optical sights, assembling heavy mortars, and horse tack, and it was a quiet day. A specialist, I ain't.

That said, I certainly appreciate all the help I have received from members of this forum who know the "Treatise on Ammunition" much better than I.

Thank you all for your assistance. The museum volunteers net appreciates it.

Doug

 

[TonyE]

Sorry if my remarks upset anyone, I was not trying to be nasty. I freely admit that my comments were based on my experience here in the UK, but I stand by what I said.

In a way, your depressing description of the situation at the Canadian War Museum confirms my point. ONE person to manage all the equipment collections for all services, and in a national war museum! I think I am correct in saying the Canadian War Museum is run by the Museum of Civilsation Corporation which is an arms length government organisation?

I don't think the collections manager would be allowed near a fork lift truck in a UK national museum, let alone drive it. 'Elf 'n safety, you know.

No offence intended,

Regards
TonyE

 

[smle2009]

Hi TonyE,
I know exactly what you mean! A while back I visited a regiments museum not far from I live and was astounded to see 3 band Enfields marked up as Lee Enfields! After walking around and mumbling to myself about this and other 'cock ups' it became apparent I was being followed by the curator who demanded that I went with him to the armoury.
In there it was 'ok smart ar*e bet you havn't seen one of these before'....'fraid so mate only last week in Belgium'...'and I was allowed to play with it'....the last straw was me telling him that he should really have this T-Gewehr 18 in the museum as it was the most intresting thing in there!....got told to go away at this point!!!!

Tony

 

[TonyE]

I know what you mean. If you look at the on-line REME Museum web site you will see that it has a number of errors. I offered to go through it and make corrections (for free). The guys in the museum were happy, but I received an e-mail from further up the line to the effect of "..what do you know?"

At least in Canada they appear to let knowledgable volunteers help out.

Regards
TonyE