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small arms cases..... ww2 probably....... 100% +ve ID required, Please?

R

rmarg-jim

Member
Hello,
I have a new find for ID, but it's been dug (EOD on site) so no photos. I know what I geuss it is, but in the interest of Science I'd like tell you about the find-site after we have an ID.

a pair of spent small arms cartridge cases:
24.61mm long.
Rimless (9.91/8.74mm diam).
Shouldered (9.69mm diam), at 19.8{ish}mm from head.
Calibre 7.92mm? (outer diam 8.34mm).
Headstamp evenly spaced " F "" * "" N ".
Very deep, round, firing pin mark in cap.

This one will get BOCN cited in a proper archaeological report :bigsmile:

cheers,
Jim.
(might not be able to reply for a few days- living in a van on site)
 
Hi Jim sounds like a 7.62x25mm Tokarve case to me,FN being fabrik National(Belgium) and if no date on headstamp most likely commercial,brass or steel case Jim?

Cheers
Tony
 
Hi Jim,
I'm sure its a 7.62x25mm,but if brass with no date and made by FN it's unlikly to be military or WW2,sorry about the photo but not good light in here, its of a steel cased soviet military version.

Cheers
Tony

P7050004.jpg
 
Jim,
as it's a brass case and 99.9% a commercial round it could well have been marketed as Mauser 7.63mm round(C96 pistol) but are identical to the 7.62x25mm round,the latter being a 'hotter' load and not recomended for use in the C96

Tony
 
As Tony says, it is much more likely to be a 7.63 x 25mm Mauser cartridge case which is dimensionally the same as the Tokarev. The brass case and Fabrique Nationale manufacture supports this. The headstamp is a commercial one, but that does not mean it did not have any military use.

I note your location and wonder whether this came from the Auxiliaries site which is currrently being excavated? If so, it does not surprise me that this calibre was found, as certainly some Mauser pistols were in use in the British military. Several small orders for 7.63mm ammunition were placed with Kynoch during the war and these would have also had commercial headstamps.

Regards
TonyE
 
Morning TonyE,
would the FN headstamped 7.63x25mm cases have been used by WW2 auxiliaries? as Belgium was an occupied country during WW2 and FN was given the German manufacturers code of ch?
If the site you mention is the same one I am thinking of it's high time that it was excavated,there are also some very intresting pits and concreate structures out on the common!

All the best
Tony
 
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Thanks Jonny.

Tony - I am sure we are talking about the same site. A couple of my friends from the Durand Group are working there as both archeologists and EOD.

Quite a few Mauser C96 pistols came to the UK in the "Guns for Britain" campaign in the United States. I have seen pictures of both Mausers and Lange P.08 (Artillery Lugers) with stocks fitted in use by Home Guard and others in the immediate post Dunkirk period. The headstamp from FN was in use before the German takeover and there would have benn stocks in the UK anyway from the FN importer, which was LePersonne & Co. in London.

Regards
TonyE
 
Hi TonyE,
Thanks for the extra info and it all ties in nicely now! and a good find by Jim and his team.
I wonder where those C96 and the 'die lange pistole 08' pistols are now?
Will have to keep an eye out for the intrim report on Jims site,the end report could be years in the making!

Cheers
Tony
 
Thanks to both Tonys!
Yup, it's Coleshill, and yes we will be returning there regularly (NT permitting) and the final report will be a while.... in the meantime we are putting as much online as we can.
TonySMLE: which common? we're taking a deco at anything and everything....
cheers,
Jim.
 
Hi Jim,
Hungerford common, 200yds(ish) over the cattle grid out of town on the same side as the canal and half way between the pill boxes and road,you should notice the pits from the road and dotted about are,mainly partialy buried concrete structures(gun placements?)
Jim any chance of a link to the online reports/info?
I do have an intrest in Hungerford as I used to live nearby(Upper Chute) and sold militaria in the arcade

Cheers
Tony
 
Hi Tony,
I've often looked at them... combo of ww2 and medieval features + concrete cattle feeders! I think the common was documented in the late 80s (Pillbox group) and again for the Defence of Britain archive on the SMR, but no invasive work has been done that I know of- permission difficulties, possibly).
January report is here http://www.coleshillhouse.com/coleshilluncovered/ and this week's will be up ASAP (Romans getting in the way).
I think I may have bought some of your stuff!
cheers,
Jim.

In the meantime... http://warrelics.eu/forum/armour-we...n-105mm-lefh18-part-id-please-found-uk-78226/
 
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Hi Jim,
thanks for the links(can't see the pics for the aircraft parts id:tinysmile_cry_t4:).
Do you have someone to deal with your Romans? Done Roman and earlier sites around here myself

All the best
Tony
 

CH1-11-0073
this is the only aircraft bit photo'd so far- the longest bit and the one below (broken off). A local kindly donated an info plate from a MKIII Merlin engine, found before 1985. We don't yet know if these bits are from demolitions practice or an aircrash yet, so :crossedlips: until we have the OK from the RAF Historical Branch.

As for them Romans...... it's Silchester:cheers:
 
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