Shotgun Cartridges?

[kaskowiski]

I have come across a number of what appear to be the heads of shotgun cartridges however they are made of a ferrous metal and are badly corroded with no identifying marks. Most still have a central primer. They all measure about 13/16 diameter. One has the possible remains of a casing made of brass measuring 11/16 diameter and appears to be quite a separate component to that of the head. Can anyone suggest what these might be?.

 

[EOD]

As you say, remnants of shot shells.

 

[kahu1]

Or possibly something like Martini Henry .450, Snider .577? the early ones had an iron base and folded/rolled brass case.


cheers
Bob

 

[kaskowiski]

Thanks Bob
They were found along with CAC 12 gauge cartridges. I obviously know little about shotgun cartridges but from my research to date most have a solid brass base. These are of a similar size but their construction is nothing like what I have seen.I cant find any info on iron discs in the head or seperate internal brass canister of 11-16 inch diameter. Interesting you mention .450 as a number of Wesley Richards cartridges were found in the same context (see my previous thread).
Ken

 

[kahu1]

Ken ,
Not really my line of interest (and i haven't seen any shotshells like that either,but also i haven't looked for any!) but the info i've got would suggest the .577 Snider over the Martini.
Rim dia. .746", Head dia .639" ,base is of iron,head is brass and the primer is prominent as per your photos.
How did they compare to the CAC shotshells?
Also prominent .577 usage in NZ...

cheers
Bob

 

[Falcon]

On most modern shotshells, the bases are actually steel with a thin plating of brass. A few months exposed to the elements will cause the bases to rust. These could actually be more recent than they appear.

 

[TonyE]

Ken ,
Not really my line of interest (and i haven't seen any shotshells like that either,but also i haven't looked for any!) but the info i've got would suggest the .577 Snider over the Martini.
Rim dia. .746", Head dia .639" ,base is of iron,head is brass and the primer is prominent as per your photos.
How did they compare to the CAC shotshells?
Also prominent .577 usage in NZ...

cheers
Bob

I don't think these are modern shotshells. I would say these are almost certainly the remnants of either .577 Snider or .577/.450 Martini Henry rolled cases, although a number of other sporting rounds were constructed on the same Boxer principle.

Bob - why do you say Snider is more likely? Both Snider and M-H have identical base dimensions since the M-H is simply a lengthened necked down Snider case. (If based on higher usage of Snider in NZ then fair enough)

Ken - You say you have not seen this type of construction before. Here are pictures of the Martini-Henry and Snider rounds with Boxer rolled brass cases and iron bases. They are not to the same scale though; as I said the bases are identical.

Regards
TonyE

 

[kahu1]

Yes ,Tony ,I agree.
The dimensions i was working of had a bit of variation , even though i did think the bases were the same, as you said. Also , i was thinking the foil/paper cart of the Snider was more likely to disintegrate,leaving just the cup and base.
The usage here was possibly 50/50 Snider/MH, depending on the site and the era.
I took it that Ken meant he hadn't seen any shotshells constructed this way.

cheers
Bob

 

[TonyE]

Thanks Bob. It is not uncommon here in the UK to find these heavily corroded iron base disks with just a stub of foil on old Volunteer ranges and it is almost impossible to tell whether they are M-H or Snider.

I took it the other way, that he had not seen that type of construction on any cartridge before. Sorry Ken if I was stating the bl*****g obvious!

Regards
TonyE

 

[kaskowiski]

Thanks Bob and Tony
I think you are both bang on - The reason I haven't seen shot cartridges like this is because they aren't shot cartridges. The construction is exactly as you have shown Tony (the head at least). They come from a domestic rural site dating from c.1870s - 1920s and were recovered from a reliable temporal context so they are definitely not modern. Now to expose my ignorance further could they have been used in the same rifle as the .450 Wesley Richards cartridges or are we talking about a different weapon. A quick google suggest they were used with enfield rifles in the British army however I confess I am more at home discussing whitehead torpedo's that small arm cartridges and rifles.

Thanks again
Ken