Rifle bullets, but which weapons?

[GeoffR]

Hi, just joined and hoping the expertise on this forum can identify (what to me are) a few oddities. They come from what was probably an old firing range in the UK, but long since not used as such. Which weapons do they come from?

First photo (4 rounds)
All .303 rounds, I believe. Certainly the top one is.
1. Top round - standard .303 SMLE round (MkVII cartridge), length 1.27" 5 left hand rifling grooves, groove width equal to raised part. Why are there two crimping rings? What purpose did that serve? Does that date the round?

2. Second item from top. Appears to be .303 but slightly squashed, so hard to be exact. Length 1.27". There are 6 right hand rifle grooves but the grooves are significantly narrower than the raised parts. No crimping ring visible. Which rifle?

3. Third from top. .303 (tracer version of No.2 above?). This has a crimping ring clearly visible. Rifle grooves are the same as No.2 above. Which rifle?

4. A sectioned example of No.3 above.

Second photo (single round)
5. Which rifle? The bullet is a bit worn, but not too much as the rifle marks are still visible. Slightly squashed, with diameter between 0.253 and 0.262. Length 1.25". 6 rifle grooves, right hand, with grooves narrower than the raised parts. No obvious crimp line. Weight about 8gm (=123.5 grains) but my scales only work in whole numbers of grams so it could be anywhere between 7.5 and 8.5 gms.

Geoff

 

[TonyE]

Hi

Welcome to the forum.

Your top bullet is an American contract made .303 inch. They put two cannelures on the bullet so that they could either be secured in the case by a neck crimp or the more usual British style of just below the neck. It was probably fired in an SMLE but could have been a Bren or a Vickers as all have left hand twist rifling.

I suspect the second one is in fact an American .30 inch (.30-06) but cannot be sure from the photograph. The fact that it has a six groove right hand twist rules out any British weapon. It could have been fired in any of the US weapons supplied to the Home Guard, Model 1917 Rifle, Browning MMG or Browning Automatic Rifle.

Third is a .303 inch G Mark II tracer, and as it is right hand twist then it was probably fired from a .303 inch Lewis gun

Regards
TonyE

 

[GeoffR]

Thanks, that's interesting as I hadn't considered an American angle. Rather than the second being American .30-06 (difficult to measure dia as it is slightly squashed), as the rifle marks are so similar to the third, could it also be .303 fired from a Lewis gun?

While you were replying I was adding a second photo (being new to the forum I had failed to load the second - finger trouble!). I could probably provide better photos later, but haven't found my best examples yet. In total the projectiles I collected from this site range from .45 Martini Henry & .577 Snider, through round nosed (some hollow) and pointed .303, plus a wide variety of pistol rounds. Quite a variety for a non military (save wartime) area.

Regards
Geoff

 

[TonyE]

One of the reason I identified the second one as possibly a .30 calibre was the knurled cannelure at the neck position. Although Britain used a neck cannelure (sometimes knurled) from about 1943, it was deeper and more obvious that your example, which looks American to me.

You have the advantage of having the example in front of you whilst I am working from a photograph! There is nothing like getting the "feel" of an object when trying to be positive about identification.

Cheers
TonyE

 

[GeoffR]

A bit confused by the 'second as possible .30 due to the knurled cannelure' - knurled cannelure on the third but not the second? Appreciate the difficulty of photographs and so have sent you a pm - at least I have tried to, but I'm not sure it has gone - please advise. I was timed out, had to log back in again, and then couldn't find the command to send. It might have done it automatically when I re-logged in again, but I don't know.
With regards
Geoff

 

[TonyE]

PM received, and will reply shortly.

No, I did mean the second bullet. It appears to me that there is a ver faint knurled cannelure in the neck position, but it may just be the picture.

Cheers
TonyE

 

[GeoffR]

I think it is just in the picture. I've just sent a pm. Only one this time I hope. Finger trouble on my part earlier, probably caused by the fact that I haven't managed to work out how to view my 'sent' items. I can see received messages but not sent. I'm sure I will figure it out soon.
With regards
Geoff

 

[GeoffR]

Tony,

While collecting the things for the package, see pm, I came across these three cartridges from the same place.
The first (marked R A 42) is broken at the neck, but looking at your website would I be right that this is likely to be American Remmington?
The second (marked G 28 VII) looks outside the date range for 'G'.
From my limited knowledge of weapons, the oblong firing pin mark would indicate the last two were fired by a Bren gun - or did othe machine guns leave a similar imprint?
The third case has a distinctive mark at 3 o'clock on the edge of the percussion cap, but I can't see similar on the G 28 cartridge. Is that additional mark significant for the weapon that fired it?
These cases are not in the package.

With regards
Geoff

 

[beihan62]

Hi Geoff,Could the mark at 3 o,clock on the third pic be caused by an over enthusiastic ejector mechanism,just a guess really,
Cheers,
Don,

 

[GeoffR]

Yes Don, that's what I was thinking, but I don't know the innards of the Bren breech well enough (it's a very long time since I looked inside one) to know if it's indicative of a Bren or of other types of machine gun.
Thanks, Geoff

 

[hangarman]

The elongated firing pin mark on a .303 is from a bren. An elongated firing pin mark on a 7.92 could be from a BESA tank machine gun, although it could be a ZB28 or a 7.92 bren. The same mark can also be found on 7.62 cases, which have been fired from a L4, which is a converted BREN used up till the 1990's by British forces. The mark at 3 o'clock is the mark from the ejector, although in reality the mark is at 12 o'clock, relevant to the weapon. There is usually a C shaped dent just below the shoulder from where the case has hit the ejection port.
Cheers
Gary

 

[GeoffR]

Thanks Gary, that's what I was hoping to hear. I did wonder if the same or similar marks were left by other machine guns, Vickers, Lewis or even RAF Brownings.

This particular cartridge was found in an area used for training during the latter part of the 39-45 war, and certainly no later than 1945.
A small point, to make sure I have got things right and exposing my ignorance of conventional terminology: the C shaped dent just below the 'shoulder'. Am I right that the shoulder is where the cartridge narrows to accommodate the smaller diameter of the bullet?

Some of the cartridges bases show the mark you mentioned being from the ejector, others don't - see the difference between the second and third photos. In some cases corrosion could have removed the evidence (very few cartridges are in perfect condition), but I assume there could well be a variation in intensity of the mark between individual guns?

Many thanks
Geoff

 

[hangarman]

Hi Geoff,
Yes, you are correct, the shoulder is where the cartridge narrows to accommodate the bullet.

Here is a picture showing l-r
7.62 NATO fired from a L4
7.92 BESA
.303 Bren


The Vickers, Lewis gun and .303 browning's all have circular firing pin marks.

Cheers

Gary

 

[GeoffR]

Hi Gary,
Thanks, that pretty much isolates the Bren cartridges from the others.

To go one step further, do you know if there is a size (or any other) difference between the circular firing pin of the SMLE rifle and those of the wartime Vickers/Lewis/Browning machine guns?
If anything, I would imagine the machine gun pins might be a little more robust and therefore possibly larger than the single shot rifle, but it is just a guess. In the picture below, I can't imagine a firing pin mark being any smaller than that shown and so likely to have been fired by an SMLE or No4 rifle.
Any thoughts
Geoff