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Remington 1968 9mm
- Thread starter bacarnal
- Start date
the S&W 76 submachine gun, S&W Model 9 pistol were in use during Vietnam just to name a couple. Also I remember just after we got the Berretta 9mm and went to the range we had 9mm in 72 rd boxes, just remember it never thought about why. I'll check the Yellow Book to see if it still lists that round in that packaging.
I found approx 6 different DODICs for 9mm 115gr bullets, one 2 of them they were loaded 72 rds per box, the rest were 50. One of the 72 rds boxes were packed in metal cans, the other 72 in standard ammo cans. 1 of the 50's were packed inwax coated cardboard boxes, the rest were regular cardboard but they all differed in how many were packed per ammo can or metal container.
The DODICs are still listed as current, but I talked to a engineer at Olin (winchester) and he said he has not see a 72 rd pack in over 30 years. But there was a request in the late 80's to pack 9mm sub sonic in 72 rds packs, ut the contract was later changed to 50. I have a call into the current remington plant in AR, to see they say.
The DODICs are still listed as current, but I talked to a engineer at Olin (winchester) and he said he has not see a 72 rd pack in over 30 years. But there was a request in the late 80's to pack 9mm sub sonic in 72 rds packs, ut the contract was later changed to 50. I have a call into the current remington plant in AR, to see they say.
V40
Well-Known Member
If referring to any MACVSOG/STD teams during Vietnam, initially and in the begining, the teams used M45's allot. Then in 1968 everything changed to XM1777E2's with the exception of a couple of SpecOps missions in which Uzi's were used. The only 9mm carried in any regularity (That is if taken) would have been the Browning Hi Power.
I collect 9x19mm cartridges and boxes and have for over 50 years. The box pictured is the only US 72 round box I have documented. The headstamp on this ammunition is also unique on 9x19mm "9MM RA 68" as far as I know. I have only encountered this round and box with the 1968 date and only in lot 5000. It appears that this was a one off order. This ties in with the 1968 transition that V40 mentions above. I obtained my round and box in late 1970 or early 1971 when I returned from SEA.
I saw a quite a few Carl Gustavs that came out of Laos, but the ammo was all the Agency purchased Dominion with "9 MM 45" headstamps with a very, very few French rounds mixed in. This same ammo is what you got when you ordered 9mmM1 Ball from the Army Single Manager for Munitions in 1980.
Weberoed's comments on the info from DODIC is very interesting. Lots of custom loads are purchased by the SOF and other special activities. I have seen some of it, along with confirmation on who it was sold to in the US Government, but have almost never seen a round from a USG source floating around among collectors.
Good thread! Many thanks...
Lew
I saw a quite a few Carl Gustavs that came out of Laos, but the ammo was all the Agency purchased Dominion with "9 MM 45" headstamps with a very, very few French rounds mixed in. This same ammo is what you got when you ordered 9mmM1 Ball from the Army Single Manager for Munitions in 1980.
Weberoed's comments on the info from DODIC is very interesting. Lots of custom loads are purchased by the SOF and other special activities. I have seen some of it, along with confirmation on who it was sold to in the US Government, but have almost never seen a round from a USG source floating around among collectors.
Good thread! Many thanks...
Lew
Lew,
Good additional info on this ammo. It really never occured to me that Lot 5000 might be the ONLY lot produced. The boxes I recently acquired came in a sealed can from the estate of a Vietnam era Navy Admiral. These were also discussed in a thread over on the U.S. Militaria Forum recently where I included some data from a Navy OP regarding the intended usage of this ammo.
http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/156592-vn-era-usgi-9mm-ball-ammo/
Nice to see you again at SLICS. Hopefully again next year.
Rick
Good additional info on this ammo. It really never occured to me that Lot 5000 might be the ONLY lot produced. The boxes I recently acquired came in a sealed can from the estate of a Vietnam era Navy Admiral. These were also discussed in a thread over on the U.S. Militaria Forum recently where I included some data from a Navy OP regarding the intended usage of this ammo.
http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/156592-vn-era-usgi-9mm-ball-ammo/
Nice to see you again at SLICS. Hopefully again next year.
Rick
Rick, Thanks for the info! I visited the US Military Forum. Some interesting info, but a good deal of misinformation, as I'm sure you picked up. The WWII Canadian was, I'm sure, the 9 MM 40 (and 41, 42, 43, 44, 45) that was originally made for the CIA by Dominion in Canada from the very late 1940s into the 1950s. Canada did not produce 9mmP in 40 & 41. The 9mm sold by Dominion before the war was Kynoch ammunition dated 1922 (apparently a reject lot from the Dutch contract for the Vickers Luger). In late 1941 or early 1942, the Canadian government answered a UK Ordnance Board query and confirmed they had no experience in manufacturing 9mmP. In addition the early "9 MM 4?" loads are the same design as the Canadian 1955 production, but different from earlier Canadian 9mm production. The later "9 MM 4?" loads are the same design as the Canadian 1945 ball!
Tony E can give you more info on the white boxes by Winchester. The 50 round box illustrated was not the British contract as far as I know. The British contract had the "50" in the top right and left corners. I don't know about the 64 round box, but I'm sure Tony E will know.
I have seen the Drawing from the Army manual showing the "9MM RA 77" headstamp. That date has never been reported. I believe that the author of that drawing was just "updating" the headstamp. I have an earlier drawing from an Army publication showing a 9mmP with headstamp "F A 42" which is also almost certainly artistic licence. Hackley and Woodin in their research have only been able to find a single instance of an FA headstamp on a 9mmP case and this was "F A 55" on an unfinished case. Other FA production had no headstamp and is covered in their upcoming Vol 3.
I'm not surprised that the Vietnamese liked the Czech ammo, about half of their ammo was loaded with a Czech copy of the German mE bullet with an iron core!
US military production of 9mmP, and US purchase of foreign loads, including quite a bit of ammo from Israel, is an interesting subject with a Lot of unknowns. Most procurements of 9mmP on FedBizOps have no restrictions limiting the bidders to US suppliers.
Look forward to seeing you next year at SLICS. Hope a lot of BOCN members get there-the more the merrier!
Cheers,
Lew
Tony E can give you more info on the white boxes by Winchester. The 50 round box illustrated was not the British contract as far as I know. The British contract had the "50" in the top right and left corners. I don't know about the 64 round box, but I'm sure Tony E will know.
I have seen the Drawing from the Army manual showing the "9MM RA 77" headstamp. That date has never been reported. I believe that the author of that drawing was just "updating" the headstamp. I have an earlier drawing from an Army publication showing a 9mmP with headstamp "F A 42" which is also almost certainly artistic licence. Hackley and Woodin in their research have only been able to find a single instance of an FA headstamp on a 9mmP case and this was "F A 55" on an unfinished case. Other FA production had no headstamp and is covered in their upcoming Vol 3.
I'm not surprised that the Vietnamese liked the Czech ammo, about half of their ammo was loaded with a Czech copy of the German mE bullet with an iron core!
US military production of 9mmP, and US purchase of foreign loads, including quite a bit of ammo from Israel, is an interesting subject with a Lot of unknowns. Most procurements of 9mmP on FedBizOps have no restrictions limiting the bidders to US suppliers.
Look forward to seeing you next year at SLICS. Hope a lot of BOCN members get there-the more the merrier!
Cheers,
Lew
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I just check the Joint Munitons Web site, and went to the list of ammo DODICs, which lists the DOT/DOD hazard class, the type of ammo and in many cases rounds packed per case. The resent listing now only shows 5 DODICs for 9mm and in of them lists 72 rds per box, 8 boxes per can. The rest are all 50 rds. 2 of the 50 rds are listed as 147 gr sub sonic, all the rest are 115 gr. There is some confusion though on the 9mm sub sonic rounds that was made for the S&W model 39 Hush Puppy, Oiln did make rounds for it, but I can not find a DODIC for it or its current weapon system. Of course no telling who makes them or made them from this list, but Lake City, Olin, remington and Twin Citys AAP I ahve as having amde them in past. Olin still makes the 115 and 147 gr, as does Lake City.
I am going over to the Olin plant Friday, one of the engineers therre is going to get me some info on the previous packing. He did say they there are records on file for 72 rds per box from a contract in the late 60's. He thinks the Lot size was 22,000 rds, but that is one of the things he is going to check for me.
I am going over to the Olin plant Friday, one of the engineers therre is going to get me some info on the previous packing. He did say they there are records on file for 72 rds per box from a contract in the late 60's. He thinks the Lot size was 22,000 rds, but that is one of the things he is going to check for me.
I spent all Friday afternoon going through the Olin Winchester plant in East Alton, IL (FYI if you are not aware they are moving the plant to Mississippi, except for the shotshell and primer explosive line).
Had a great talk with one of their oldest engineers. He not only showed me the history of their 9mm line, but also the various packing drawings and pictures, he is checking to see if he can release most of them to me know. He remembered the 72rd per pack because it was a pain in the ass to pack and had to be done by hand. As he remembered it, this was one of the first US military packs in the Viet Nam era. And that they tried to get the govt to take 100 rd packs instead, but Uncle Sam didn't want that. SUpposedly that contract only lasted a few month, when 45, 556, 762 and .50 cal really took off. They have a really great display board with their 9mm line, even breaking off to the experimental stuff (higher velocity with heavier loads, anti personnel loads, silncer rounds and of course the sub sonic. I even got to read a report where Olin (Western Arms) tried to get the gvt to drop the 115 gr and go for the 147gr, then another one promoting 124 gr. But the115 gr has stuck.
They did make about 10,000 rds one time with no head stamp and no markings on the cardboard box. The boxes were packed thin metal boxes and shipped off to someplace in North Carolina (he said it was not Fort Bragg or to the marines, so I have a pretty good idea who got them). He also stated they never used anyother headstamp that was not Olin, Winchester, Western Arms, etc - mostly always WCC. Even in the experimental roounds.
Right now they turn out about 13,500 rds a day in military and 10,000 in civilian 9mm. But once the line gets moved to Mississippi, he thinks the numbers will decrease along witht he quality. Oilns already has lost 2 big gvt contracts for .22 cal and lost a .40 S&W contract for the FBI (or Secert Service) all for poor quality.
I couldn't take my camera in the palnt with me, but am hoping to be getting some soon.
FYI Remington is trying for gvt contracts now also, for many years they have kept away military ammo.
Had a great talk with one of their oldest engineers. He not only showed me the history of their 9mm line, but also the various packing drawings and pictures, he is checking to see if he can release most of them to me know. He remembered the 72rd per pack because it was a pain in the ass to pack and had to be done by hand. As he remembered it, this was one of the first US military packs in the Viet Nam era. And that they tried to get the govt to take 100 rd packs instead, but Uncle Sam didn't want that. SUpposedly that contract only lasted a few month, when 45, 556, 762 and .50 cal really took off. They have a really great display board with their 9mm line, even breaking off to the experimental stuff (higher velocity with heavier loads, anti personnel loads, silncer rounds and of course the sub sonic. I even got to read a report where Olin (Western Arms) tried to get the gvt to drop the 115 gr and go for the 147gr, then another one promoting 124 gr. But the115 gr has stuck.
They did make about 10,000 rds one time with no head stamp and no markings on the cardboard box. The boxes were packed thin metal boxes and shipped off to someplace in North Carolina (he said it was not Fort Bragg or to the marines, so I have a pretty good idea who got them). He also stated they never used anyother headstamp that was not Olin, Winchester, Western Arms, etc - mostly always WCC. Even in the experimental roounds.
Right now they turn out about 13,500 rds a day in military and 10,000 in civilian 9mm. But once the line gets moved to Mississippi, he thinks the numbers will decrease along witht he quality. Oilns already has lost 2 big gvt contracts for .22 cal and lost a .40 S&W contract for the FBI (or Secert Service) all for poor quality.
I couldn't take my camera in the palnt with me, but am hoping to be getting some soon.
FYI Remington is trying for gvt contracts now also, for many years they have kept away military ammo.