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MkVI .303 with Magnetic bullet

P

peashooter

BOCN Supporter
Can anyone tell me if there were ever any round nosed AP bullets for .303 because I have 5 rounds that were in with my MkVI rounds to catalogue the headstamps are K14 VII & K13 VII but these rounds had what looked like MkVI bullets in them. I have been finally cataloguing the rest of my .303 and I always have a magnet handy but when I tipped out the bag of MkVI rounds out on my desk 2 of the rounds stuck the magnet which I thought was very strange and on checking I have 5 in total with this magnetic MkVI bullet

any help greatly appreciated

Richard.

It looks like there was a Round nosed AP bullet in around 1907 "Roth Armour Piercing Bullet" but surely these would not be in a 1913 or 1914 dated case ???
 
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That's a odd'un Rich,could they have been reloaded commercially, as they are headstamped VII ?
Just checked the KN 14 VI in my collection and it has no magnetic attraction.

Atb
Tony
 
I got 11 rounds of MkVI all with either K13 VII or K14VII in the same lot, 5 have this magnetic bullet that looks exactly the same as the non magnetic MkVI's.

Rich
 
Rich my point was as the cases are headstamped as Mk 7,it would suggest that they were originally Mk 7 then reloaded as Mk 6,if this was done as a commercial venture at a time we do not know, could the 5 'magnetic' ones be CN plated steel jacketed bullets? .....I checked the 1914 dated Mk6 to see if they were still using CN bullets at this time.
Perhaps it could be worth 'cutting' one of the 5 to find out?

Tony
 
Tony I have found in Temples .303 identification manual -

"During the period following the introduction of the MKVII ball round, batches of MkVI were made by some of the private factories - notably Kynoch - using cartridges cases with the later pattern's headstamp. This was presumably done as a matter of convenience"

this explains the MkVI in a MkVII case but not the magnetism I have checked and no MkVI bullets should have been made with CNCS envelopes around this time, I will section a bullet tonight when I get home from work

Rich.
 
Thanks Rich and please let us know what you find with the section,just one more dumb question,what type of neck crimp does the 'magnetic' Mk VI's have?

Tony
 
Tony, I can answer your question with a pic of one of the rounds in question. The bullet on this one is also strongly magnetic.
Jim

 
Hi All,

Sorry Jim, offline when this query posted!

I was told by a knowledgeable .303 collector of long standing that these bullets started life as 8mm bullets for Mauser rifles. Kynoch had a surplus of them, and swaged them down to .311", and loaded them in to cases that were surplus to a contract for the Government of Mk.VII Ball ammo. They were put in commercial wrappers, and sold mostly to Rifle Clubs. The bullets were CN coated steel jackets with a lead (or lead and antimony) core. Never weighed one, but I assume they were 215 grains or thereabouts.

Roger.
 
Thanks Roger. I understand that Rich has pulled one of his rounds so it would be interesting if he weighs the bullet and finds it to be about 226gns. That would prove your theory quite nicely!
Jim
 
I have weighed all the bullets and they are from 213.4 to 214.2 I will cut one this weekend wont get chance until Saturday

Rich
 
The only other thing I have found is that in the years before WW1 the war office experimented with a semi round nosed AP based on a design of George Roth of Austria,which had a steel core surrounded by a lead sleeve inside the bullet envelope.

Tony
 
Right I have cut one today and it is just a magnetic bullet envelope with lead inside nothing fancy it cut really easy with my little dremmel tool and I am still no wiser to what they are, there was a suggestion on the IAA forum

"If we consider the possibility these bullets started out as Mauser, there's a good chance they were in fact for the 7.65 m/m Mauser. A 7.65 m/m round nosed bullet would substitute very well for the .303 mk. VI bullet as to weight and wouldn't even require a reduction of diameter. Further, the 7.9 m/m bullet would be about 12 grains too heavy, and in the pre-1914 period there was far more international market for the 7.65 than the 7.9. Jack"

what do you think ????

Rich
 
I think Jack's theory is a good one. Could you measure the exact length of one of your pulled bullets? I have a UK-manufactured 7.65mm Mauser with a roundnose bullet (1917 manufacture by Nobels) and I'll pull the bullet to compare weight & dimensions with your .303". If they do match that's at least part of the puzzle solved. The next question though is why?

Jim
 
Spoke to my knowledgeable friend again yesterday, about this, and he told me that he originally had the info that these were swaged-down 8mm Mauser M88 bullets, from the late Peter Labbett. Where Peter got the info from, we do not know.

I mentioned the 7.65mm theory to him, and he said that as far as he could recall, Peter was definite that these were 8mm bullets originally.

Regards,
Roger.
 
This thread is also running over on the IAA site but for those that don't use that forum I'll copy & paste my latest comments;

According to Peter Labbett's book the identifying features of the Mk VI bullet are that it is 32mm in length, weighs 215gns, and has one wide cannelure approximately 3mm from the bullet base.

I have one of the magnetic Mk VI rounds as described by Rich, headstamped 'K12 VII', and I have pulled the bullet. It is 34.37mm in length and weighs 227.2gns. It is perfectly smooth and does not have a cannelure however there is a very faint mark around the bullet about 6mm above the base which could have been a cannelure - before the bullet was swaged. The lead base is perfectly flat but the core appears to have been squeezed out of the jacket very slightly and is proud of the base by about 0.5mm. I'd say my round has been loaded with a swaged 8mm Mauser bullet. I don't have a British-made 8mm Mauser bullet to compare this with to confirm whether the faint mark would have been a cannelure or not.

I have also pulled my only British 7.65mm Mauser (made by Nobels Explosive Co in 1917) and found the bullet to be absolutely identical in every respect to a .303" Mk VI. It is 31mm long, weighs 214.2gns, has a non-magnetic cupro-nickel core and has one identical cannelure in exactly the same position as the .303". It also has a very pronounced concave shape to the base.

I am satisfied that my .303" round has been loaded with an 8mm Mauser bullet and this would go along with Roger Mundy's theory that Kynoch had a surplus of 8mm Mauser bullets & Mk VII cases, put the two together and sold them off to shooting clubs.

The really confusing point now is that Rich has also pulled a couple of his rounds but found that his bullets weigh about 214gns - the correct weight for a Mk VI bullet. I don't know the first thing about ballistics but I can't believe that bullets with a 3mm difference in length and a 11gn difference in weight are going to perform reliably.

Rich - in response to your last question I can confirm that 8mm Mauser M/88 bullets do weigh about 226gns.

Jim
 
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