Japanese or Chinese 57mm projectile? (or from somewhere else?)

[ogreve]

Hi,

I may be in a position to buy the shown projectile, which is an alleged 57x121R AP projectile. However... it doesn't look typically Japanese to me. It somehow looks longer than the Japanese ones, also, the driving band looks wider than what I think the Japanese one should look like, and finally, I'm not aware of IJA projectiles with markings on the driving band (IJA projectiles tend to have these markings above the driving band).
According to the current owner, this projectile came from Saipan 66 years ago.

I've got a strong feeling that it is Chinese, but I'm not 100% certain. Does anyone recognise it? Also, are the shown characters kanji, and if so, are they Chinese or Japanese, and what do they mean?

I hope someone can shed a light on this one....

Cheers and thanks in advance!
Olafo

 

[Dronic69]

Hi Olafo,

With the "wide" driving" band looks more like a British 57x441R (6pdr AP Tank).

http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/tankammo2.htm

The drawings I have of the Japanese 57mm AP tank has a stepped base projectile, for Type 92 base fuse. My "fussy" reference photos of both the HE & AP together seems to indicate that the AP has a slightly wider driving band, but not as wide as in your photo.

I don't recognise the kanji stamps - but then they could be an unknown arsenal....(the kanji is the same for Japanese and Chinese - just different "interpretation")

My 2c worth.
Cheers
Drew

BTW - If it is reasonably price - just grab it! :tinysmile_twink_t2:

(It may be quite "rare"!!!)

 

[Slick]

Olafo, Drew

Checked my U.S.N.B.D. book. Closest thing it shows is the Type 92. It also notes that the driving/rotating band is 10mm. It does have that JapANESE profile.

Good luck on the bidding, Olafo.

Rick

 

[Dronic69]

Hi Rick,

Thank you for the clarifications and confirmation of the driving band. Apart from accurate documentation, I was hoping that one of our members may actually have one for comparative analysis.

Olafo,

Well there's no holding back now!!!!!
(But even if there were some "doubts", for the right price >>> get it!)

Cheers
drew

 

[Chris 42 RQ]

Hotchkiss exported ?

That base plug looks very much like the "Hotchkiss" plug on many of the exported APHE shell we see all the time.
There is a thread showing a few in detail but I failed to locate it.

 

[ogreve]

Hi,

Shown is a picture of two 57x121R rounds of a fellow collector. Note the differences in the driving band height!

The markings on the driving band look familiar, but I don't know their meaning...

As for "just grabbing it": I would if the price were low, however, this one would easily set me back $200 before I'd have it over here, so I'd really like to be a bit more certain of what it is....:tinysmile_cry_t:

I hope anyone can tell for sure...

Cheers,
Olafo

 

[ogreve]

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the tip!
I just searched and may have found the thread you're referring too. Is this the one?: http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/57-x-222-t70501.html?t=70501&highlight=57mm+aphe

Hazord shows several 6Pr projectiles there, however, none of them is an exact match in all respects...

BTW: you do raise an interesting possibility: the Japanese did use British manufactured 57mm 6Pr rounds too (I have a casing of that), just around the turn of the century.

Somehow this projectile doesn't look quite that old, but I may be mistaken...

Maybe this sheds a new light on matters?

Cheers,
Olafo

 

[Dronic69]

Checked my U.S.N.B.D. book. Closest thing it shows is the Type 92. It also notes that the driving/rotating band is 10mm.

Rick

I would be querying the seller if:

1) The width of the driving band (10mm?)
2) The overall projectile length is 7 11/16"
(Now who's using inches!!!)

Cheers
Drew

IMO - the driving band is wider than 10mm from the photo.
From the reference thread, it is mentioned that the VSM AP-HE projectile with the wider driving band was for the long case???....
Are you sure this a tank round projectile?
Perhaps it was an experimental??? Maybe the unusal stamps reflect this?

 

[Chris 42 RQ]

Maybe maybe not?

Hi Chris,

Thanks for the tip!
I just searched and may have found the thread you're referring too. Is this the one?: http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/57-x-222-t70501.html?t=70501&highlight=57mm+aphe

Hazord shows several 6Pr projectiles there, however, none of them is an exact match in all respects...

BTW: you do raise an interesting possibility: the Japanese did use British manufactured 57mm 6Pr rounds too (I have a casing of that), just around the turn of the century.

Somehow this projectile doesn't look quite that old, but I may be mistaken...

Maybe this sheds a new light on matters?

Cheers,
Olafo

Thanks Olafo, you have found the link, although the 47mm Hotchkiss is even more like your shell base than the 57 mm !
Bit of a mystery item that one and very worth having at the right price if you can get it-whatever it it turns out to be.
Good luck in getting it I'D !

 

[ogreve]

Hi,

Some follow-up info:

At the Gunboards none less than Cliff Carlisle ID'ed it as follows:
"It's a 6 pounder Hotchkiss projo. The one I had was IDed by the late Jim O'brien as a US manufacturer for export. Unfortunately I don't remember to what country. The Japanese did use the 6 pdr but theirs had the anchor & Naval inspection stamp under the band."

Also, a native Japanese speaker wrote that the markings do not look like Japanese Kanji.
There's a remote possibility they are Chinese Kanji, but it's more likely that they aren't Kanji at all... I'm guessing the latter to be the case then?

Then: some additional information was sent per e-mail by the seller:

"The projectile comes from a gentleman that served with the 6th Marines during WWII.
The thing has been laying in his work shop since after the war. He said it was recovered from " ... a damned TOJO
Tank". It has only the markings as pictured, as for the length: 210mm approx. (that's from the bottom of the shell,
217mm approx. overall). the band is 16mm flat part, 20mm total."

Now that is weird! Just like I thought the dimensions are not correct for the 57x121R projectile, but the 6Pr was AFAIK only used by the IJN; or at least, I have no records of it having been used by the IJA...
I seriously put this provenance at doubt, unless this projectile was carried around by someone in the tank....?!? Makes little or no sense, unless it was carried as some kind of talisman or souvenir from a previous campaign....

It would be great if the characters could be identified. I suppose they are perhaps some arsenal marks, or perhaps the 'JE' is an abbreviation of an arsenal or so...?!?

Anyone???

Cheers,
Olafo