Japanese 8mm Murata round?

[ogreve]

Hi all,

I've come across an auction of a typical Japanese 'trench art' item: it's basically a normal rifle round, but it has commemorative engravings; a thing which is very common on ordnance that comes from Japan itself (it almost seems like close to ALL ordnance retrieved from Japan has such engravings).

Now, I don't really collect SAA, and hence I also know preciously little about it. However, in this case I couldn't match the pictures with what I know the more common rifle rounds (like the 6.5 Arisaka, 7.7mm, etc.) to look like. the rim without extraction groove directly led me to think this to be a really old round, possibly an 8mm Murata round. I checked Ken Elks' books on it, and sure enough, the only rounds shown that have similar casings, are indeed the 8mm Murata rounds.

So far, so good, but for all I know, it could also be some captured ammo, quite possibly from one of their clashes with Russia or China.

Does anyone know if this is indeed an 8mm Murata round, or if it is something else? For now I only have the auction's pictures, but once I have it in my hands I can do some proper measuring of it.

Also: I bought this one in the assumption that they may be quite rare (I know the 11mm Murata rounds to be pretty rare). Can anybody tell me if this is indeed a rare round or not? Also: any ideas about what it's value might be?

Thanks in advanced and cheers,
Olafo

 

[TonyE]

8mm Murata

It certainly looks like an 8mm Murata, but dimensions, particularly case length, would help.

The bullet is odd. Is that a hollow nose? Also, what is the headstamp, as I cannot quit read it in your picture, it looks like "22"?

Could it be a 7.62x54mm Russian case re-worked by the Japanese to Murata?

Regards
TonyE

 

[ogreve]

Hi Tony (and others),

Thanks for your reply!

I've just read the entire section on 8mm Murata ammo and the shown headstamp certainly comes closest to the Russian reworked ones (see the attached image which is an excerpt from Ken's work on them).

I think the headstamp shows the number '18' (= '1918' ?) at the 9 o'clock position; it also seems to have something (possibly the Roman number 'IV') at the 12 o'clock position, and I think it has something at the 6 o'clock position. The 3 o'clock position looks a bit more worn, and in the only image I have of it, I cannot discern any markings with certainty (though it looks like there might be something there). Possibly the 10-11 o'clock position features the 'shi' mark, but again, it cannot be discerned with certainty. It does seem that the 7-8 o'clock position features a line, perpendicular to the primer (i.e. a 'spoke'), but I cannot see any at other positions.

The round is already in transit, so I cannot get accurate measurements until it's at my Belgian middle man's place. I shall ask him to provide more detail when it's in.

From what Ken writes, typical Japanese CNCS bullets would have had a flat tip (and are apparently extremely rare); this particular specimen may or may not be flat (I don't think so). There's no mention of the small hole in the tip of the bullet (this may be a trench art modification). For the Russian reworked ones there's no mention of any CNCS bullets (see the excerpt).

Hmmm, mysterious...

If the '18' denotes '1918', it would be too late for being a Russo-Japanese wartime Russian round. If, OTOH, the '18' is the beginning of '18XX' (with the 'XX' being the rest of an 1800s date, appearing at the 3 o'clock position), it may be older....

I'll try to get the Kanji translated by Takehito; often these Kanji make mention of what war is being commemorated.

As a somewhat related side-note: several 76.2x385R Russian casings are seen with Japanese additional stampings (at the 12 o'clock position), being at least the Osaka arsenal crossed cannons, and often (though not always!) also the notorious 'F' marking. These casings date back to around 1915-1916. Too late for them to be captured ammunitions from the Russo-Japanese war, and in those years the Russians would still have been well uptied in WW1. Possibly these were sold post-1917 to Japan, as war-surplus. A wild guess could be that possibly around the same time the Russians sold more munitions to Japan, possibly including these reworked rounds for the Murata?!?

Interesting for sure, even if it turns out to be something other than a Murata round. I'd also love to find out more about Russian manufactured munitions for Japan. It would be great if we could put a date (interval) and set of calibres to them.

Incidentally: did the Chinese perhaps also use similar calibres?

Cheers,
Olafo

 

[jonnyc]

The parent case seems to be more like an 8x50R Mannlicher.

 

[TonyE]

Murata

I shall be seeing Ken in a few days time so will have a chat with him to see what he thinks. When you receive the round I would like to see the pictures of the headstamp.

Re: Chinese rounds in similar calibres, I have the proof copy of Ken's next book on Chinese ammo, so all will be revealed in the fullness of time!

Regards
TonyE

 

[TonyE]

Russo-Japanese sales

It is possible that Russia sold munitions to Japan in WWI as by that time of course they were allies. However, all the trade I know of went the other way, with Japan supplying Arisaka rifles and ammuntion to Russia. Japan supplied over 500,000 rifles to Russia plus the 130,000 Arisakas we supplied once we had finished with them in 1916.

Regards
TonyE

 

[ogreve]

Hi Tony,

Very interesting information!
Do you have some sources where figures and dates can be found on such deliveries?
I've also always been very interested in finding out more (timeframes, manufacturers, quantities, calibres, ...) about the British fullfilled contracts for producing ammo for Japan, such as the 47x131R and the 6Pr calibres (EOC for sure, but who else...?). I'd love to find out info about that someday.

As for Japan delivering to Russia, yeah, that certainly makes sense up to 1916; that's also when it seems unlikely that Russia would have sent anything the other way round as they'd probably need it themselves a lot. I can, however, really imagine the Russians to have had vast supplies around still when the Russian revolution took place; stuff that might have gone to Japan in exchange for the Arisakas (and other things) you mentioned.

Interesting.

As for Ken: please say "hi" to him.
He's one of my heroes and I'd love to have some more contact with him (by e-mail that doesn't work so well). Can you perhaps ask him if I can have his phone number so I can call him sometime?

His book on Chinese ammo sounds highly interesting too: I have some interesting specimens in that realm too; quite possibly even rarer and more obscure than Japanese ammo... Do you know which calibre range is covered?

Cheers!
Olafo

PS: In case you haven't seen it yet: in due time all my findings will be located at http://www.japaneseammunition.com (I just desperately need some more spare time to continue filling it) - a lot of the stuff I have up to the 75x104R calibre has already been covered though.

 

[TonyE]

Japan

I will certainly say hello to Ken for you.

As for Japanese supplies to Russia, my interest only covers small arms and ammunition so I am afraid I have no data on artillery calibres.

With respect to British deliveries of Japanese rifles and ammunition, there is plenty of information in my book on Arisakas in British service. In summary thouigh, we made 559 million rounds of 6.5x50SR ammo for Russia between February 1916 and September 1917 and shipped them about 130,000 rifles when supplies of Lee-Enfields were sufficient for the army's needs and the Royal Navy had been issued with Ross rifles to replace their Arisakas.

Regards
TonyE

 

[ogreve]

Hi Tony and others,

Good news!
The rifle round has arrived at my middle man's place, and I have gotten more precise measurements which he took using a caliper, and I have also gotten better pictures of it.

The measurements in black are what he found for the Russian 7.62x54R Mosin calibre, and the ones in red are what he measured on my round.

Also, he wrote the only legible text on the head is the number '18'.

Then, I had also sent the old (poor) pictures I had to Takehito, and he gave the following feedback:

"The rifle round is not a Murata 8mm, but probably a Russian round picked up during the Russo-Japanese war. The marking reads Ryojun (Port Arthur) Commemorative. So someone must have picked up the round himself and engraved it, or it may have come from cases of captured ammunition after the Port Arthur surrender, and the commemorative pieces made from them (primer and bullet bored out, powder dumped and engraved) and sold commercially to soldiers who took part in the war, or to citizens."

The new, far better, pictures also show the other side of the round, and that side has further engravings. I sent these picturs to Takehito too, and he just sent the following follow-up:

"The 203 and the following Kanji marks refers to the "203 Hill" which was a historically significant point of high casualty battle between the Japanese and Russians before the direct attack onto Port Arthur began. I'd say the round is a Russian round picked up at the battle site, quite cool.
FYI, no Murata 8mm rounds have any headstamps."

Does anyone know what this round is most likely to be?

Cheers,
Olafo

 

[ogreve]

Hi,

A major update: my middle man has taken a close look at the headstamp with a 20x magnifying glass, and managed to make out the following headstamp markings:

12 o'clock: 'IV'
3 o'clock: '05' or '95'
6 o'clock: 'PPC' or 'PRC' or 'RRC' (only the 'C' is clearly legible)
9 o'clock: '18'

It should be noted that each of these parts is delimited by a 'spoke'.

An educated guess at the 3 o'clock position could be that it forms the date '1895' (in combination with the 9 o'clock position). Also, the 6 o'clock position might read 'PRC' (= "People's Republic of China" ?), if that term was already used back then... Possibly foreign manufacture for China ???

Surely someone can now ID this round with this additional extensive information...

Anyone?

Thanks in advance and cheers,
Olafo

 

[TonyE]

Murata

That makes it much easier. The cartridge is an 8mm Mannlicher and the headstamp is actually:

12 o'clock: 'IV'
3 o'clock: '95'
6 o'clock: 'K & C'
9 o'clock: '18'

It was made by Keller & Co. in Austria in April (IV) 1895. Quite why that should be found at Port Arthur I do not know.

Regards
TonyE

 

[ogreve]

Hi Tony,

Thanks for that full identification; it's greatly appreciated!

So, it's Austrian....
As to your question: I've seen a 'Berndorf' (i.e. Austrian) manufactured 80x233R casing, which was manufactured around 1905, and has a proper Japanese (Meiji) date stamp of -IIRC- February 1906 on it.

It seems likely that Austria delivered ammo to Japan then, unless the Japanese captured it from the Russians in the Russo-Japanese war. This Mannlicher round may also have been part of a foreign contract of Russia or Japan, fullfilled by Austria? I know very little about SAA, and I don't know the exact dimensions of the 8mm Murata, but would this Mannlicher round perhaps have fitted in Murata rifles? Somehow from the pictures the mouth looks slightly manipulated. Could it be that this round was converted for usage in a Murata rifle then?

Maybe Ken knows (or someone else)?

Cheers,
Olafo

 

[jonnyc]

I called that case ID back on post #4.
That round could have been used by Austrian, Hungarian, Bulgarian, Polish, or Chinese troops at any time prior to its finding or capture by a Japanese trooper, either in China proper, or anywhere along the Russian Asian front. There was a lot of movement of troops and equipment all over the "Greater Russian Empire" from the 1880s through the 1920s, and beyond.

 

[TonyE]

8mm

So you did Mr.C! All I was doing confirming and explaining the headstamp.

Regards
TonyE

 

[jonnyc]

Yeah, but I still want the prize!!!

I seem to recall reading something about Czech or Polish mercenary units crossing Russia and fighting somewhere in the East in the 'teens or twenties. Not much to go on, but either could easily have been armed with Mannlicher rifles or MGs.

 

[TonyE]

Czechs

Ok, OK you can have a prize!

The Czech Legion fighting in Russia was in 1918/19, much later than the Russo Japanese war of 1904/05, but you are right, they took over a large chunk of the Trans Siberian Railway and effectively set up their own state, complete with banknotes and stamps.

Regards
TonyE