Israeli 105 mm Ammunition for M51 Sherman

[BillA]

I am currently writing a book on Tank Gun Systems: The Early Cold War Years 1946 to 1975. This is a follow-on book to my first, which covered tank guns from 1916 to 1945 and has already been published. In it, I am discussing the Israeli M51 Sherman tanks which mounted the French 105 mm D1508 gun, a cut down version of the F1 gun in the AMX 30 tank. Sadly, I can find very little information about the gun system itself. My question here is what specific ammunition did it use? It used 105 mm projectiles which were the same for all French tank guns of the period. However, the cartridge case and propellant load were reduced to be able to cope with the lighter chassis of the M4 Sherman. Were the munitions the same as those for the 105 mm D1504, which was developed for the AMX 13 light tank? If not, how did they differ? In any event, any information about these munitions would be extremely welcome, including the propellant load.
many thanks
Bill Andrews

 

[apfsds]

Not sure if helpful, but I have a few, Israeli 105mm APFSDS-T rounds for their tanks and for foreign sales. Also a, French 105mm APFSDS-T round. They are all patterned for the M68 / L7 105mm gun and their variants made by other countries.

The Israelis are masters of up gunning captured and old tanks with better gun systems and technology. I know they did extensive work on their own, Sherman Tanks as well as those in, Chili, perhaps other countries as well?

Jason
PS: Looking forward to buying a copy of your new book when it is published down the road.

 

[BillA]

Not sure if helpful, but I have a few, Israeli 105mm APFSDS-T rounds for their tanks and for foreign sales. Also a, French 105mm APFSDS-T round. They are all patterned for the M68 / L7 105mm gun and their variants made by other countries.

The Israelis are masters of up gunning captured and old tanks with better gun systems and technology. I know they did extensive work on their own, Sherman Tanks as well as those in, Chili, perhaps other countries as well?

Jason
PS: Looking forward to buying a copy of your new book when it is published down the road.

Jason: Thank you for this. My information is that the APFSDS rounds came into service after the M51 tank had been retired by the Israelis. Also the 105x617R mm ammunition for the NATO 105 mm tank guns could not be chambered in the M51, as the latter's casing was too short. The exact dimensions, though, are proving elusive. It would seem that the Israelis made their own ammunition for the M51, in agreement with your statement. Bill

 

[apfsds]

Jason: Thank you for this. My information is that the APFSDS rounds came into service after the M51 tank had been retired by the Israelis. Also the 105x617R mm ammunition for the NATO 105 mm tank guns could not be chambered in the M51, as the latter's casing was too short. The exact dimensions, though, are proving elusive. It would seem that the Israelis made their own ammunition for the M51, in agreement with your statement. Bill

You are correct in all of this. Not sure when the Israelis made the 60mm APFSDS-T specifically for the, Chilean Tanks they upgraded. Definitely won't fit the M51 for sure. Please post pictures and any research you uncover. Super interested. Really hope you can track this data down.

Jason