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Is this case 76mm, 3 inch, or what?!?!?!

K

Kilroy

Well-Known Member
This just came up for sale and it once again opens the question, at least for me, on the whole U.S.
Army disposition of various same ( or nearly the same ) diameter projectiles, used in different guns in WWII.

I brought this up once before with Sherman tank 75mm shells, and a 76mm in the past, but once again,
I think here is an example of yet another, different type.

Enclosed is the case in question, a steel laquered, somewhat corroded but necked case that the seller is saying is the
case used by the "tank killer" type gun. I show two pictures, one showing the case and projectile, and the other, the
more important one of the two pictures, is a closeup of the case identity stencils. I think it is a Navy 3"/50 cal , but the
seller says no, it is a tank killer case.

Enclosed are the two pictures of the necked case I suspect is a 3/50cal, and the other is a case and projectile assembled,
from my own collection, what I had supposed was the 76mm "tank killer" .

**PLEASE NOTE** the only shell in question in the third picture is the tallest one. It is lacquered steel, and is stenciled
76mm on the bottom. This case is straight walled all the way up. No necking whatsoever. Ignore the two Sherman shells
on either side, we know they were not tank killer ammunition.


Were these both tank killer type rounds?

Thanks,
Walt76mm_GB_both.jpg76mm_GB_stencil.jpg75mm&76mm_long.JPG
 
The case stencil appears, to me, to have the Army crossed cannons. AFAIK, the Navy never used that symbol on their ammunition.

Also, does the cartridge belong to Andrew Duguid? I'd trust his identification.

Ray
 
If it's coming from Andrew you can bet it's right on
The guys and expert in the field
 
There are indeed at least 2 types of 3 inch ammo, 1 Army and 1 Navy. In my collection I have brass and steel case for the Army 3 inch MKII M2 and brass cases for the Navy 3 inch MK7 MOD2 .50 CAL. They look very similar, but the neck and crimp are clearly different. Marking is very clear; one has the Army guns and the other an anchor.
 
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raymeketa said:
The case stencil appears, to me, to have the Army crossed cannons. AFAIK, the Navy never used that symbol on their ammunition.

Also, does the cartridge belong to Andrew Duguid? I'd trust his identification.

Ray
Click to expand...

Hi Ray,
were the USN still using the crossed Dahlgren guns symbol at this time?

Tony
 
Confused the heck out of me for a bit,till I read the TM9-1901 Artillery Ammunition manual. THAT particular case,MKII M2B1,, according to the book, could have been used,land service wise,in at least 6 different guns/gun types.AA guns,3 different Field guns,Tank guns,Anti Tank guns.So,the only whay to know 100% for sure about that case,what it was slated for,would be by the head stamps,which are unfortunatly gone,or if someone could decode the Lot number,maybe. So the simple answer is,yes,that case could be a tank killer case,depending on what youd consider a tank killer to be.BUT,that 3in case was also used in a number of different applications. Pretty neat really........
 
Kilroy,

The case you show is the 3 inch Army steel case for the 3 inch antiaircraft guns and the M-10 tank destroyer. Steel ones of these are rare, as the U.S was just learning how to iron steel cases in WWII, and because most of them are rusted away. The photo you show with the yellow lettering on the side tells the model of the case. In the U.S. all steel cases have the B1 designation. This case would have a brass equivalent labeled Mk II M2, and the M42 projectile you show is one of the proper shells for this case. The M-10 tank destroyer would use the M62 APCapped projectile. These steel cases are usually found with no headstamps, because people stand them up on concrete, and the headstamps rust away.

The straight steel case you show in your photo should be an M26B1 case for the 76mm gun on the Super Sherman. It uses the exact same projectiles as the 3 inch case that you ae asking about. If the straight case were necked down 1mm to 75mm, it would be the case for the 75mm skysweeper antiaircraft gun.

None of your photos show any Navy cases.
 
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smle2009 said:
Hi Ray,
were the USN still using the crossed Dahlgren guns symbol at this time?Tony
Click to expand...

Tony - I'm not sure I know what the USN crossed gun symbol would have looked like. Regardless, it would have been way before my time since I'm almost certain that the Navy symbol from the early 1900s, and beyond, was an anchor.

Dahlgren guns came in a variety of sizes and shapes. The Army crossed guns symbol is more akin to the seacoast Columbiad.
16kv0v5.jpg
 
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So, to summarise, there are basically three US 3inch cases with a 103mm rim :-

76.2x586R....for 3in M1902 CD / M1918, M1, M3 AA / M5, M7 AT / M6 AFV......... for projectiles with a broader driving band...... Case ID: MkIIMI, MkIIM2 (with B1 for steel cases)
76.2x601R....for 3in M1902 CD / M1918, M1, M3 AA / M5, M7 AT / M6 AFV......... for projectiles with a narrower driving band.... Case ID: MkII, MkIIA1 (withy B1 for steel cases)
76.2x580R.... for 76mm M32 AFV............................................................................................................................... Case ID: M88, T19E1, M171A1, M331A1, M340 etc
 
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3 in MKII M2 B1 4.jpg3 in mkII M2 B1 1.jpg3 in MKII M2 B1 2.jpg3 in MKII M2 B1 3.jpg
HAZORD said:
The M-10 tank destroyer would use the M62 APCapped projectile. These steel cases are usually found with no headstamps, because people stand them up on concrete, and the headstamps rust away.
Click to expand...

The M62 APCapped projectile would be found in a case with single krimp because there is only one groove in the shell. All the steel cases I've seen have a double krimp. Are there also steel cases with single krimp? There is not much of a headstamp on these steel cases. My case has only an X stamped. For the rest it is stenciled in black with lot number and shell type. Does anybody know what the "X" means both stamped and stenciled? Also strange on the different size "5" and "2".
 
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raymeketa said:
Tony - I'm not sure I know what the USN crossed gun symbol would have looked like. Regardless, it would have been way before my time since I'm almost certain that the Navy symbol from the early 1900s, and beyond, was an anchor.

Dahlgren guns came in a variety of sizes and shapes. The Army crossed guns symbol is more akin to the seacoast Columbiad.
16kv0v5.jpg
Click to expand...

Hi Ray,
yes it could well be a bit before your time,I have only seen it on a USN 1870 bayonet:bigsmile:,overlays an anchor.

Tony
 
@Western

Can you post the information that is stamped around the primer on your case? Typically U.S. manufactured cases would have ID info stamped into the metal on the headstamp, but there is a lot of info on your primer. The black lettering on your case doesn't look like it is of U.S. origin, so I'm wondering about the primer.
 
Well, it is a U.S. primer, I believe Kansas Ordnance Plant manufactured.
 
I'm going to throw out a wild guess, that the N stood for Norris, as Norris was the one who perfected making the steel cases in WWII in the U.S.
 
I'm going to have to disagree with John, KOP were the initials for the KINGSBURY ORDNANCE PLANT in Kingsbury, Indiana,

Best regards,

Randall
 
John , Norris is good enough for a guess for me. I know the later symbols of Norris are NIV and NOR . They produced a lot of big bore caliber cartridge cases.

Randall , you might be correct .The only source I have is MIL HDBK 1461. This handbook tells KOP is KINGSBURY ORDNANCE PLANT.
Kansas Army Ammo Plant symbols are KAP , KNP and KN.
 
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