Inert ord laws abroad

[timmymac]

Just curious, but I was wondering what are the malls like in Europe concerning collecting and importing inert ordnance. Here in the US, things seem to be tightening up a little. This is evident from the lack of dealers that are willing to ship outside European Union . I'd also be interested in your thoughts on what might be coming down the pipe, as far as international trading is concerned other guys as well Asia Russia, please chime in. Look forward to reading your response!
Tim

 

[hicky1300]

Malls? As in shopping Malls or do you mean Mail?
Laws regarding what is allowed to be mailed vary from country to country (even internally let alone abroad). Mailing costs to USA is also an issue.
Also laws within countries regarding what is allowed & the condition it needs to be in vary. Good example here is Belgium now it is law that 20mm & smaller complete rounds & cases!! have to have case drilled. Bigger than 20mm I think you have to take it to Liege & get it registered!!? As to posting stuff out of Belgium I do not know.
In the UK there are strict laws regarding ammunition & weapons. technically if you have an AP bullet for a .303 & you do not have a Section 5 licence you are breaking the law - the same goes for soft/hollow point, Tracer & incendiary etc. Posting complete rounds the mail system is not happy about but a declaration inside that it is Free From Explosives & possibly explaining it is a collectors piece can suffice - but it can be at the interceptors discretion - as I have found to my cost!!
I am sure you will get a variety of responses - & that is possibly wherein the problem lies!?
Laws too open to interpretation & unclear & vary from country to country.

 

[US-Subs]

You also have the problem of selective enforcement. I spent a week one time travelling to different recovery sites in France with military, MFA and MOD officials, listening to them explain the different laws prohibiting the collecting/sale of military ordnance. Then as we would stop for fuel you would see fuzes, etc. for sale in the gas station windows. The same in different parts of Belgium. A lot of the confusion comes from what is the actual law and what is the common practice. Once an accident occurs or it is brought to the public's attention, enforcement is tightened up, then it becomes difficult for eveyone.

Part of the problem with shipment to the US is that it has been generally illegal for decades in the US to import most military equipment. Doesn't matter is it is US manufactured, WWI, etc. There are forms you can fill out and try to run through ATF and/or Customs, but lacking these if it is caught you will generally lose it. A lot still gets through of course, but about 6-7 years ago the US started putting pressure on European countries to tighten up on mail sent to the US. I had packages which I sent from my hom in the NL to home in the US refused and returned by the NL. I was licensed to own the items in the NL, but they would not let me ship them to the US. Anyone selling to collectors in the US has to take into account what happens if the package is lost, seized or returned. Not good business.

 

[timmymac]

Sorry about typo hickey, I meant laws. I guess what I was told initially was that if it fell under the catagory of "historic artifact" it was "legal" to ship to US destination, if that destination was a museum. I was once actually told to say I was some sort of curator by a dealer if I got a call from customs. The guy was just trying to help me out, I believe but probably not the best advice!

 

[US-Subs]

Sorry about typo hickey, I meant laws. I guess what I was told initially was that if it fell under the catagory of "historic artifact" it was "legal" to ship to US destination, if that destination was a museum. I was once actually told to say I was some sort of curator by a dealer if I got a call from customs. The guy was just trying to help me out, I believe but probably not the best advice!

Nope, at least not in the US. About a year ago I looked into what it would take to turn the Bombatorium into a museum. I brought a lawyer over that specialized in that sort of thing and asked him what it I would need to do. His response was, "poof, you're a museum". Turns out that "museum" in the US is just a term, means nothing, and most of the Federal Agencies know that. The average citizens are used to military, State or Federal Museums, something which is run to a standard by the government, but in fact anyone with a matchbook collection can call themselves a museum, and that is what many are. A

non-profit is a little different, but still not what most people think. I was told that I could go that route, but that it was not recommended unless I was clearing at least 25 thousand per year in profits. Turns out "non-profit" does not have the same legal meaning I was expecting. Something to remember when asked to make a donation. So trying to use that excuse bringing things in just draws attention, unless you have the backing of a well know and credited organization.

 

[Eodtek]

From what I have seen over the years, for true, legal importation of inert items into the US, you need to read this:
http://www.ecfr.gov/cgi-bin/text-id...9cc5df41a180750a&node=22:1.0.1.13.58&rgn=div5
as it provides the items that require documentation for import. Most will want to read Category IV as it covers most of the common ordnance items.

Then you would need to file this:
http://www.atf.gov/files/forms/download/atf-f-5330-3a.pdf
Pages 13 and 14 are the instructions and provide additional guidance.

Here's why. ITAR does not differentiate between an item that is explosively filled and one that is inert.

 

[AMMOTECHXT]

Media articles have much to answer for but like it or not the media influences public opinion - `it's ammunition, therefore it's dangerous' - never mind whether it is empty or filled, or the only way that something could injure you is if you drop it on your foot. Attention-grabbing headlines will sell more copy. The knee-jerk reaction is to clamp down. I found out many years ago that people working in the media often care more about the story than how truthful it is.

Possession of the relevant certificate for live SAA is essential; for other items it is desirable that they can be certificated or demonstrated to be inert, otherwise you run the risk of them being seized by the authorities. I can understand why some authorities would not wish people to hold complete, inert examples of ammunition. That is why I collect only expended examples - the fact that I know how they were designed to function, that they have functioned and that I am happy they are free from explosives allows me to collect them, safe in the knowledge that they are inert and not a danger to anyone. It is not necessarily correct to say that all ammunition that has been used is inert. The general lack of knowledge on ammunition, coupled with the quantity and diversity of ammunition, means that people can be over-cautious but rightly so. Some people are naturally curious about what is out there but their curiosity has to be tempered with caution and it is wise to educate the curious as to the likely dangers. Does that make sense? It doesn't really answer the thread question, it just seems to be a commonsense basis to start from.