Identification help needed Nordenfelt versus Navy

[HAZORD]

Guys,

A few weeks back, one of the members posted info regarding the letter N on the cartridge case headstamp, stating that it meant for Navy use. In that instance, the headstamp had a number of different things stamped into it besides the N.

I have a few rounds and the few odd cases and projectiles from the late 1800s/early 1900s era that have a single N stamped into the projectile and a single N stamped in the case headstamp. A couple of the projectiles have the characteristic Nordenfelt rotating band (tapered leading edge with multiple grooves).

So my question is: Did Nordenfelt stamp their products with a single N, so my items are Nordenfelt manufactured, or are they Nordenfelt manufactured for Navy, or what exactly?

Thanks,

John

 

[2pounder]

N navy or not

I too have seen a lonely N on items but I think the real question is when did the naval N stamp start being used? and when was Nordenfeldt taken over such that they did not produce ordnance? 2pr

 

[tigbrand]

Ordnance Arrow

I would guess that a N on its own without an acceptance arrow would be Nordenfelt and An N with arrow close by would signify a Navy item. I dont have any Nordenfelt stuff accept 1",but the Nordenfelt N is usually bigger than the normal naval mark. And as far as i know,which may only be 2 inches,British ordnance of a service type will show the arrow somewhere.Im probably wrong though!

 

[Hoeksel]

I found several Nordenfeldt shell cases in Belgium that only have the "N". Since Belgium used the 57 mm Hotchkiss a lot, I would think the "N" is for Nordenfeldt on these cases (N for Navy does not make sense in Belgium).

 

[HAZORD]

Thanks guys!

So if I'm reading what you have said correctly, and drawing a conclusion, then a single N with no broadarrow would be Nordenfelt produced for export, and a case with N and Broadarrow would be at least Navy and maybe Nordenfelt produced for Navy? I haven't seen any cases stamped with more than one N.

Does anyone else have a theory, opinion, or facts to add to this question?

Does anyone know when the pheon (broadarrow) was first used for marking Crown property?

Thanks,

John

 

[frizzen]

Nordenfelt

To further complicate it, some of the early Nordenfelt cases were completely blank, not even the N. Other identifying aspects of Nordenfelt ammunition are round stake marks (as if done with a punch) on the case to crimp onto the projectile (usually three) and a milled ring around the primer.

 

[HAZORD]

Thanks frizzen! I had noticed the milled concentric ring around the primer as being common, and the stake marks to crimp the projo in the case but not as common as the primer ring. I have some cases with no headstamp at all, identical to N marked cases, so that bit of info is good to know also.

Another thing I have noticed, is their habit of copper plating some of their projectiles.

Do you know if there is a list of the different sizes and types of ammunition that Nordenfelt produced? I have a couple of 42mm round designs and haven't seen any info on them.

Thanks,

John

 

[ydnum303]

Broad Arrow

Hi Hazord,

I understand that the "Broad Arrow" to mark British ordnance stores was already in use as far back as 1386! (No, I am not quite that old; I got this info from a short article in one of the ICCA journals.)

It was still in use in the 1960s, at work both my teaspoon and waste-paper bin (the civil servant's two most essential items) were stamped with it.

R.

 

[2pounder]

Nordefeldt

there is a list and drawings of Maxim Nordenfeldt guns on a cd that I have seen, will see what I can find, but may run into copyright. 2pr

 

[Gspragge]

I have some of it but

It shows the 57mm 6 Pr. stuff. They did have a 38mm or 41 mm that was much more powerful than the Hotchkiss. The early rounds are copper plated and that was one way they built up the rotating band. I will see what I can find, but basically it was the standard calibers with their gun pattern. This is what they were offering circa 1897.

 

[HAZORD]

Thanks Gordon! I have 2 sizes of 57mm, 2 sizes of 42mm (1.65 inch), some 37mm variations, etc. all N marked for Nordenfelt. I wish they had marked their creations more along the lines of the U.K. property rounds, listing the gun design and size on the headstamp.

John

 

[2pounder]

nordenfeldt

Found my list, same as the one posted, I have various cases believed to be Nordenfeldt but not marked N. Can anyone confirm the id of this round thought to be Nordenfeldt all empty and inert and not totally sure the shell is correct for the case. Cal is 38mm and case is 195mm long. The fuze hole in the shell base is 23mm dia. Final question how far in the case should it sit? 2pr

 

[HAZORD]

2Pounder,

I have a few rounds with the same case as yours, and three different rotating band designs for copper plated projectiles of that size. I believe that the bottom bands go inside the case, and the case stops just behind the band closest to the projo front. I will have to check, but only one or two of my cases are marked with N.

Here is another question for you. A while back you wrote a very detailed history of Elswick, with approximate dates for headstamps of EOC, VSM, VAEL, etc.

Do you have any information regarding when the use of N (Nordenfelt) was changed to the Nordenfelt-Maxim stamp, and how long the Nordenfelt-Maxim character was used? For a company that marked their creations, they sure had a problem with putting a date on things. The one good thing that resulted from all of the mergers through the years, was that approximate dates can be estimated from the character stamped on the projo/case.

Thanks,

John

 

[2pounder]

Nord Max

Hazord, not sure it was me that wrote details of vsm vael dates, I recall something but hardly detailed but something in your post made an idea light up. Try this for size: initially Nordenfeldt marked their cases with N then when they joined Maxim they used an M but made from two Ns back to back. I have an obviously Nord. case that has such a mark and I remember some posts on this type of mark that looks a bit like a strange broad arrow. Have put my hands on the case in question and will look to see if I have others. Maybe some others can give some details. 2pr

 

[HAZORD]

2Pounder,

Yes, that double N symbol is the Nordenfelt-Maxim mark. It shows up on some of the rounds that Gordon has displayed in his 37mm collection. I have a number of projectiles that have that mark.

 

[ozziammo]

Greetings HAZORD,

I have recently picked up a 42 x 260 Nordenfelt cart case & would be interested in seeing what the projectiles looked like for this round, could you please post pics of the 42mm projectiles you speak of?

The cart I have is headstamped with only the large N, as well as having the ringed primer.

Still a very unusual cart to find in Australia!!

Thanks.

Regards Ozzi.

 

[highlandotter]

Pretty much the earlier posts sum it up. N marked or blank markings, 3 dot crimp, ring around primer well, copper plated projectiles with multiple rings. I can add that 42mm rounds used by Spain and 38mm used by Sweden and Australia. The number and width of rings is quite variable, I have3 different copper plated 38mm projectiles, all probably made in 15-20 year interval. Nice mystery rounds. Elswich Ordnance Co made the last batch of Nordenfelt rounds which can complicate things further..

 

[highlandotter]

Just remembered Italy used a 42x186R landing gun, and the round was produced from 1880's up to during WW1.Only noticeable change is the fuze.

 

[Gspragge]

Navy Versus Nordenfelt

Here is an example of the British Navy N and the Nordenfelt N both in their own context.