ID request: two very old Japanese/Chinese projectiles or parts thereof ?

[ogreve]

Hi,

I was offered the two projectiles (or parts thereof) and I am wondering what they are exactly, and if they are rare enough to warrant the relatively high cost.
They are presently located in Japan, and one of them has commemorative markings that are written in a very bizarre way; they show the Japanese/Chinese Kanji ideogram for the word 'year' and then (written in Kanji!!!) the number 1922! This is unlike what I've seen before, but.. these are only commemorative markings, so they are not really of much relevance to the ID at hand, other than suggesting that the marked projectile is likely dating back to 1922 or earlier.

Well then, before deciding whether they are of interest to me, I'd first need an ID on them, as to calibre, usage, nation.

My own theories about them are as follows (note: dimensions are shown in the pictures):

The first one (i.e. with 21mm diameter) appears to be incomplete, it does not have a "driving band". The shape shows that this is of the armour piercing kind and the bottom shows it to be solid shot. It looks like either of the following two kinds:
1) A solid shot armour piercing projectile of which the driving band has been removed. The overall shape doesn't really seem to support this, unless the driving band was attached in a very weird way.
2) More likely, if you ask me: the core of a bigger APCR (= Armour Piercing Composite Rigid) projectile. This would then be the hard steel (rusted, hence not tungsten) core of a bigger projectile. If you look closely at the other projectile, it seems to have the groove at the same location and the dimensions very strongly seem to suggest this being the core of a projectile such as the one shown in the other pictures.

The second one does look like a complete projectile. It appears to be quite old in light of the excessively wide brass driving band (and the commemorative markings). I'd guess it was manufactured somewhere before say 1900, but I'm not sure of course... The base of it looks weird too. Any ideas as to what the groove could have been used for (crimping in a case, possibly?) ?

Alright, this is what I have on them at present. My guess is the first one to be a core of the type of projectile shown in the second set of pictures. I can request further details if required....

Does anyone have any ideas?

Thanks in advance and cheers,
Olafo

 

[Weasel]

Hi Ogreve,
They look like 1" Nordenfelt projectiles, i have not seen a solid one before but the brass jacketed one with steel core is not uncomon, used by many countrys. Have a search on the forum using nordenfelt and 1" 1 inch etc you will find plenty of stuff.
Best regards Weasel.

 

[ogreve]

Hi Weasel,

Thanks for the ID!
I did what you wrote and searching with the words: "Nordenfelt inch" (without quotes) I came across this post: http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/54233-1-inch-Nordenfelt-with-a-difference.

Looks like it!

Weird projectile....
As for it being of interest... The seller wants $65 (a piece) for them, plus (expensive) postage from Japan. It would be my guess that that's too expensive. Unless.... they are Japanese used.

Apparently they don't have any markings (other than the commemorative ones). Can anyone tell me if the known specimens were marked in one way or another?

Also: does anyone know if this was ever manufactured for the Japanese (or Chinese)?

Cheers,
Olafo

 

[2pounder]

The steel one is missing its brass jacket, the pointedness gives a clue to their date, more pointed means later, still pre 1900 or thereabouts. British ones have a broad arrow and or S on the jacket base.

 

[Gspragge]

As they are Nordenfelt projectiles they would have been sold by Maxim Nordenfelt C0 1888 - 1887 . Not sure how it worked after that if these were still being sold. I would doubt that any imported to Japan were marked, but if they were it wold likely be on the case. None of these would have been captured from the Russians or Germans. At least the inscription gives proof of place which is half the battle. An inscribed example if they were used is perhaps as good as it might get. The trouble with some of this generic ammunition is once it's removed from Japan there is no way to prove that it came from or was there. For example some Hotchkiss 37mm projectiles were Navy marked, the explosive kinds. Practice projectiles were not so once removed from Japan it is hard to prove that they were from there so even an inscription is helpful. On German or Russian types those we know were captured.

Yes they had them , go to on line search with this ; Comparison of the Japanese and Chinese Force

 

[Slick]

This has been a most interesting thread, not only for topic and content, but the "process", at its finest. Great stuff.

Rick

 

[ydnum303]

Sorry to hijack your thread, Olafo, but I also have one of these 1-inch Nordenfelt projectiles with what I have been told is Japanese writing on. Have no idea what it says; can anyone provide a translation, please? The case it came in I have been told is an Italian flare cartridge. can onyone confirm this, please?
Wish these pics would go in where I wanted them!

Thanks in advance,
Roger

 

[Gspragge]

What is on the base, I saw some British issued projectiles and they had the Broad Arrow mark, I expect this has no markings. Looks Japanese to me, but better to get it from some one who knows~

 

[ogreve]

Hi,

Nice projectile and nicely marked. I cannot comment on the case; I do not recognise the headstamp style. It certainly does not look Japanese.
I can (and shall) ask for a translation of the markings. They may be helpful in giving hints as to location and date. On your particular specimen I don't directly see any date reference, but it is very likely it will carry some form of commemorative text, mentioning the battle (or just generic texts like "victorious campaign commemoration"). I shall ask Takehito.

Cheers,
Olafo

 

[ydnum303]

Thanks, Olafo.
The base of the projectile has no markings at all, so I presume is not a British Military issue.

Roger.

 

[Alpini]

the headstamp looks italian, but a little bit uncommon style. You should wait for "fert", I think he will tell you more.

 

[genkideskan]

The japanese characters on the 1 " bullet reads NAVY LEAGUE - some have a commemorative year on it. These bullets could be bought from reservists and would be offered at temples.

 

[ogreve]

Hi,

Firstly, I came across another one; very similarly marked as yours. I sent Takehito pictures of the 4 items and he gave me the following transcriptions: "the two with the flags are related to the Taisho emperor's
enthronement in 1915. As for the 1922 marked piece, it was made for the Tokyo Peace Commemoration Expo."

Actually, regarding the other one with the flags, I did find transcriptions after all; they are consistent with what Takehito wrote, and they are: "February 20, 1915/Taisho tairei (Japanese emperor YOSHIHITO coronation 1915)/Naval review Commemoration".

Cheers!
Olafo

 

[ydnum303]

Gentlemen,

Thank you all very much for your help on this. The writing had intrigued me for a long time, and I am glad to now know what it is about.

Roger.

 

[Gspragge]

What does this one say exactly

 

[ogreve]

Hi Gordon,

These markings (appearing on the 37x94R driving band of the round you and I recently came across) were translated (back then) by Takehito as meaning "inspected". No further specifics are made as to who inspected it, but it is not a standard IJN way of marking 'accepted'/'inspected' items, so, though conjecture, it seems plausible that it was "inerted and/or inspected to be FFE" by some government agency, or inspected by EOD personnel or by customs, perhaps... Difficult to know for sure!

Cheers,
Olafo