ID request: 105mm Japanese or other projectile? Possibly post-WW2 HESH?

[ogreve]

Hi,

I find myself in the position of acquiring a decent quantity of larger calibre projectiles from Japan. Most of them are early ones, roughly from the period 1900 - 1918. They are located in Japan, and as some of you will know, not quite everything encountered over there is of Japanese manufacture.
I have managed to ID everything, except for four projectiles. This is one of them. It looks like nothing Japanese that I have documentation on, which would be the stuff used by Japan in (mainly) the later Showa era.

This particular projectile has a calibre of 105mm, or something close to that. The shape of it is distinctively off for anything Japanese that I'm aware of: I do not see a bourrelet, there is no nose fuze (and the projectile obviously has a large cavity inside, so it is not an APHE one) and the base is also odd, with a thread for a large base plate. The overall shape of the projectile reminds me of post-WW2 HESH projectiles, but I may be mistaken. In any case, it would be an odd Japanese design in comparison to (other) Japanese filled projectiles. As much as I would *LOVE* this to be a Japanese 105mm projectile, I'm afraid it is something far, far more common.
According to the seller, there are no markings on it (at least not any that he can make out). The casing shown along with the projectile is a Japanese 105x243R casing. This casing almost certainly does NOT belong to this projectile; they were probably put together by the seller to show the calibre. The calibre should then be (around) 105mm and the length is around 360-370 mm.

The questions:

1-Can anyone ID it for me?
2-Japanese (I don't think so!)? Post-WW2 HESH? Something else???
3-Does anyone have any idea what the value of this might be? If I buy it, it will come with a pretty hefty price tag (item + shipping costs from Japan are expensive).
4-Is anyone particularly interested in it?

Thanks in advance and cheers,
Olafo

 

[US-Subs]

I don't recognize it, but HESH or HEP are normally pretty thin walled, to allow for crushing and good contact. This body looks much heavier than that from your photos.

 

[HAZORD]

I looks like a 106mm Recoilless HEP-T/HESH. I'm thinking it is unfired by the sharp pre-rifled rotating band. I agree with Jeff, that those rounds are usually thin walled, especially the recoilless rounds since they are lower velocity. My guess is that it was produced as a target practice round, using a thicker steel wall to negate the need for inert filler to make up the weight of the plastic explosive of the normal service projectile. It is most likely not U.S. manufactured. Probably produced by another country. Look for metal stamping on the body above the rotating band, running parallel to the band.

 

[bacarnal]

Olafo, The rotating band looks to be pre-engraved, which would make it a recoilless round, either 105mm or 106mm. Could be a practice or a drill projectile. Cheers, Bruce.

P.S. Was typing at the same time as HAZORD was and he beat me to the punch. Dueling Data!!

 

[ogreve]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the excellent replies!
I hadn't thought of the recoilless 106mm, and I also wasn't aware that that uses a pre-engraved driving band (though indeed it makes all the sense in the world).
All the above given explanations make a lot of sense, and John's remark of the thicker steel walls than one would expect from a true HESH round, so as to make it a TP one with hollow inside also sounds very viable.
I looked a bit further on BOCN for stuff on the 106mm recoilless rounds. I found precious little (maybe I didn't use the proper search terms), but in a different thread John mentions the 75mm recoilless rounds to have a groove below the driving band so as to allow for crimping in the thick steel casings. Such a groove is also present on the projectile at hand.

Some follow-up questions:
1) Does anyone have pictures of similar 106mm HESH/HEP projectiles?
2) I suppose this projectile to not be worth the trouble and cost for getting it across, but should push come to shove, and should I buy the seller's ENTIRE lot: is there anything special about this projectile? I would expect to see something like this under the tables at our local fairs in a 5 Euro bin.... But... I may be mistaken, of course.

Meanwhile, I shall ask the seller again for presence of markings just above the driving band...

Cheers!
Olafo

 

[HAZORD]

Olafo,

In the U.S. the same HEP projo is used for the 105mm and 106mm Recoilless. I believe it is marked for both, so your example might measure 105mm diameter. I believe I have a sectioned one that I can get a photo of, but my example is a service round, so it has a thin skin forward of the rotating band. The projo has to be thick in the band area so they can press the band on without crushing it. It will take me a day or two to get a photo.

The reason I brought up the thicker wall for practice rounds, is because that is what the U.S. did with the 120mm HEAT and TP-HEAT projos for the Abrams tank, but the HEP projos always seem to be inert filled service rounds here.

Since the projectile is in such bad shape, it wouldn't seem to be worth paying the shipping on, even if it was free.

 

[US-Subs]

Here is one of mine. Much thinner walls.