Help for a novice please.

[wraith]

Hello all. This is a fascinating site.

I'm not a collector but simply have a couple of items that I have acquired from family members and am keen to get a bit of detail / history on them.
I found your forum via the power of google and thought I'd ask the experts. Please excuse my complete lack of knowledge of technical terms.

The first one is probably pretty straightforward, I *guess* based on the source and some googling that it is a dummy anti-tank shell from an RAF aircraft but that's just a guess.

Stamped Markings are "RG" on the silver tip. "RG58" on the black part and "PRAC 2Z ?Y|1? 64" above "30MM.R.G.63" around the outside bottom of the casing (as best I can make out).

click pictures for (much) larger versions..




The second is more interesting to me as it is an ashtray that belonged to my wife's late grandfather who served in India in 1941 and I believe he may have made from an artillery shell that he brought home. I'm guessing from the marks on the bottom that it was fired. It has a George VI half-crown set inside and is part of a pair (my wife's cousin has it's partner with the a half-crown tails side up, I need to get in touch with him to get the date from that coin).

The casing is 90mm(3 1/8") wide internally. Obvious stamped markings on outer part of the base are "25PR", "LOT 1848", "RLB", "Q33", "1940", "CP" (maybe "CF"). The inner base has "No1" "II" "G/N" "8/40" "6/41" "?AN 12" "0".
The photos should show these in more detail, just click the picture for a bigger version. I include the internal view of the coin placement just for completeness in case anyone is interested in wartime souvenirs.

Excuse the condition of the piece, my wife's grandfather would be annoyed if it was not being used how he intended it to be when he made it every day so I had to give it a quick wipe before taking the pics.




Apologies for my first post being a plea for help, the poor quality photos and for posting them inline rather than as attachments but the large pictures are too big for attachments, apparently.

Thanks in advance for any titbits of information you can give me about these cherished heirlooms.

 

[Dronic69]

Hi Wraith,

Nice heirlooms! (the only thing going to be "willed" to me are bills! LOL)

The first one is a variation of the defa 30mm aircraft cannon - I have not seen that type of projectile before.....but as it has the markings "PRAC", I'm guessing that it is an experimental type of practice round with the inner assembly under the removable fuse tip to perhaps simulate the weight of the HE explosive. But then the caveat to this theory is why not just make a solid projectile with the simulated HE weight etc???
Do you know what the type of metal used for the inner assembly? (Tungsten? - for armour piecing...)

Hopefully one of the other more informed members will jump in and clarify.....

The "ash-tray" is typical of trench art that is found these days - the case belong to a 25 pounder gun (pdr) which was one of the main British guns in use during WW2. I imagine that the second one is the same, or may even been made from a German /Japanese case.
Cheers
Drew

 

[dano1917]

On one hand I just hate seeing things get cut up if not sectioning. I do take exception with the ashtray though as the sawed off 25pdr makes a fine ashtray.......Dano

 

[Chris 42 RQ]

Radway Green Production

Firstly Hello Wraith and welcome.
The first item you show is a standard 30 mm ADEN aircraft cannon round with a Brass case with the stampings;-
PRAC 2Z = Practice type 2Z (this relates to the projectile fitted into the case)
The ?Y is almost certainly CY and would be the filling station for the propellant = Chorley.
And the 1 64 will be the date of filling and asssembly.
On the "rebated" rim you have RG 30 MM 63 and this is where the case will have been made and the calibre as well as when it was made.

Projectile-
RG = Indicates the projectile was made by Radway Green a Royal Ordnance Factory in Crewe Cheshire.
And the RG58 indicates the year of manufacture.
Nice items by the way and very unusual to find an ADEN practice projectile that comes apart.

 

[Dronic69]

Nice items by the way and very unusual to find an ADEN practice projectile that comes apart.

Hi Chris,

Any ideas on why a practice projectile would come apart?

Reuse?
Impact analysis?
Different projectile cores (i.e. base part was standard)
Cheers
Drew

 

[Chris 42 RQ]

Experimental use/samples/collectors

Hi Drew in answer to your question the most likely answers are that some are demonstration pieces (Ordnance collections for users of the weapons) some will have been removed from the production line for perhaps experimental use and then found surplus to requirements and the others may well be collectors who want to see "how it works" although the production items are both glued and "staked" into the shell body and if you try to remove them the thread gets stripped by the "staking" so they are often destroyed when stripped down.

Just as an aside, I have never seen a stripped 4Z practice with the steel "slug" inside !
Hope that answers your question?

 

[wraith]

Many thanks to you all for your prompt and informative answers and comments. They have shed a great amount light on these items and gone some way to confirming what I suspected about their origins but had no way of being sure.

Given that those projectiles of those practice rounds do not normally disassemble in this way might it have been used for display/demonstration/training in relation to disposal? I suspect it may have come from an RAF BD flight.

 

[TonyE]

25 Pdr.

Your 25 Pdr. ash tray was made at Royal Laboratories Birtley (RLB) as Lot 1848 in 1940 and has been filled once with a full charge (CF).

Regards
TonyE

 

[Chris 42 RQ]

Yes a likely source

Wraith in reply, yes you may well have hit the nail on the head with that and also likely as not they will have had an HE and an AP as demonstration models also.