British Ordnance Collectors Network
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Hello everyone, looking for help on ID, origin, wpn system,
- Thread starter Ammo Rob
- Start date
Possible ID
Ammo Rob,
My guess now is 130mm cannon (separate loading) artillery. Your cartridge case has a rim of about 7 3/16 inches and a length of 33 1/4 inches. So in metric the rim would be 182mm and length 844.6mm.
According to Janes the 130mm artillery cartridge cases had a rim of 185mm and a length of 846mm. The cartridge case you have also does not have a crimp around the neck, so it is not from fixed ammunition.
The 130mm ammunition has been produced or is used by Pakistan, Iran, Egypt, and China. I have not found any information on Russian 130mm ammunition, but the M-46 130mm towed gun is a russian design copied by numerous countries and used by 25 countries according to FAS.
Ammo Rob,
My guess now is 130mm cannon (separate loading) artillery. Your cartridge case has a rim of about 7 3/16 inches and a length of 33 1/4 inches. So in metric the rim would be 182mm and length 844.6mm.
According to Janes the 130mm artillery cartridge cases had a rim of 185mm and a length of 846mm. The cartridge case you have also does not have a crimp around the neck, so it is not from fixed ammunition.
The 130mm ammunition has been produced or is used by Pakistan, Iran, Egypt, and China. I have not found any information on Russian 130mm ammunition, but the M-46 130mm towed gun is a russian design copied by numerous countries and used by 25 countries according to FAS.
Attachments
I've never seen a large artillery case through a microscope before.
The lettering is Russian. The mouth diameter is smaller than mine, but it's most likely a Russian 130mm Field Gun case for the M46 system or a newer variation. They also use a 130mm gun on their Navy ships, water cooled.
http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=91
http://www.thetankmaster.com/ENGLISH/afv/M-46.asp
Navy:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNRussian_51-70_ak130.htm
Ammo:
http://www.iramig.ir/Default.aspx?PageID=52&RelatedID=IwblIwcQ
http://www.pof.gov.pk/products/130mmhe.htm
Firing:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forum...25-130-mm-M46-cannon-in-coastal-artillery-use
The lettering is Russian. The mouth diameter is smaller than mine, but it's most likely a Russian 130mm Field Gun case for the M46 system or a newer variation. They also use a 130mm gun on their Navy ships, water cooled.
http://www.militaryfactory.com/armor/detail.asp?armor_id=91
http://www.thetankmaster.com/ENGLISH/afv/M-46.asp
Navy:
http://www.navweaps.com/Weapons/WNRussian_51-70_ak130.htm
Ammo:
http://www.iramig.ir/Default.aspx?PageID=52&RelatedID=IwblIwcQ
http://www.pof.gov.pk/products/130mmhe.htm
Firing:
http://www.militaryphotos.net/forum...25-130-mm-M46-cannon-in-coastal-artillery-use
Attachments
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Possible ID
The photo you have of the cartridge case mouth shows it is slightly out of shape so getting an accurate measurement may be difficult, but from the photo you provided it does appear to be a bit larger than 130mm.
My thought on this so far is that the projectile diameter would be 130mm so the cartridge case would be slightly larger than 130mm on inside diameter. The outside diameter would be slightly larger again due to the thickness of the material. I was also thinking, that depending on the chamber of the weapon the cartridge case could expand significantly on firing.
I was going to measure the diameter of the 105mm Howitzer projectile and compare it to the inside and outside diameter of the M14 cartridge case just to see what measurements I get to see if I can establish a compatible ratio.
Still working on markings, but length, rim diameter, and general appearance seem to match 130mm.
The photo you have of the cartridge case mouth shows it is slightly out of shape so getting an accurate measurement may be difficult, but from the photo you provided it does appear to be a bit larger than 130mm.
My thought on this so far is that the projectile diameter would be 130mm so the cartridge case would be slightly larger than 130mm on inside diameter. The outside diameter would be slightly larger again due to the thickness of the material. I was also thinking, that depending on the chamber of the weapon the cartridge case could expand significantly on firing.
I was going to measure the diameter of the 105mm Howitzer projectile and compare it to the inside and outside diameter of the M14 cartridge case just to see what measurements I get to see if I can establish a compatible ratio.
Still working on markings, but length, rim diameter, and general appearance seem to match 130mm.
That would make sense. Working on the writing as well.
http://www.alphabetandletter.com/gifs/cyrillic.gifhttp://www-tc.pbs.org/weta/faceofrussia/reference/img/cyrillic-alphabet.gif
http://www.alphabetandletter.com/gifs/cyrillic.gifhttp://www-tc.pbs.org/weta/faceofrussia/reference/img/cyrillic-alphabet.gif
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I found the primer listed on line but not much else to it. KV-5-U Screw-In Percussion Primer, Soviet
http://www.russianammo.org/Soviet_Cannon_TOC_DWG.pdf
http://www.russianammo.org/Soviet_Cannon_TOC_DWG.pdf
Guys,
Large caliber separate loading field artillery rounds do not have a close sliding fit between the case mouth and the projectile. The rounds are not loaded into the gun with the projectile in the case mouth as is the case with 105 Howitzer, 25 Pdr. , etc. The projectile and case weigh too much to be manually loaded by men as a fixed round. If you watch the video, you can see that the projectile is rammed first into a chamber that is large enough for the rotating bands to slide into, then the case is rammed in behind the projectile. The outer diameter of the case mouth would be at least as large as the the outside diameter of the rotating bands. The whole point of the cartridge case, is to seal off the propellant gases behind the projo. The case should not be expected to expand very much at all to seal when fired, or it could split and leak gas, and the abrupt large expansion would stress the chamber walls too much. If you observe the fired case in my posting, it has black soot near the mouth where some propellant gas got past the case mouth, but not very far.
This all being said, you can't extrapolate diameter differences between 105 howitzer projectile and case diameters for NATO ammo and apply it to Russian heavy field gun ammo designs. The Russians make very few sizes of large brass cases of the length shown. Since it isn't the 152mm case, it is the 130mm case. On the other hand, the Russian Navy uses 130mm fixed rounds, where the case is crimped to the projectile. They can use fixed rounds, because the rounds are manipulated by automatic loading machinery instead of people. These cases would be different than the field gun case.
Video of Russians firing 152mm field howitzers with shorter brass cases:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRR-D3gu4XQ"]YouTube- Russian Heavy Artillery MSTA-B Военное дело МСТА Б[/ame]
Large caliber separate loading field artillery rounds do not have a close sliding fit between the case mouth and the projectile. The rounds are not loaded into the gun with the projectile in the case mouth as is the case with 105 Howitzer, 25 Pdr. , etc. The projectile and case weigh too much to be manually loaded by men as a fixed round. If you watch the video, you can see that the projectile is rammed first into a chamber that is large enough for the rotating bands to slide into, then the case is rammed in behind the projectile. The outer diameter of the case mouth would be at least as large as the the outside diameter of the rotating bands. The whole point of the cartridge case, is to seal off the propellant gases behind the projo. The case should not be expected to expand very much at all to seal when fired, or it could split and leak gas, and the abrupt large expansion would stress the chamber walls too much. If you observe the fired case in my posting, it has black soot near the mouth where some propellant gas got past the case mouth, but not very far.
This all being said, you can't extrapolate diameter differences between 105 howitzer projectile and case diameters for NATO ammo and apply it to Russian heavy field gun ammo designs. The Russians make very few sizes of large brass cases of the length shown. Since it isn't the 152mm case, it is the 130mm case. On the other hand, the Russian Navy uses 130mm fixed rounds, where the case is crimped to the projectile. They can use fixed rounds, because the rounds are manipulated by automatic loading machinery instead of people. These cases would be different than the field gun case.
Video of Russians firing 152mm field howitzers with shorter brass cases:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uRR-D3gu4XQ"]YouTube- Russian Heavy Artillery MSTA-B Военное дело МСТА Б[/ame]
charley777
Well-Known Member
130mm cases
The naval gun turret and magazine depicted in the second photo from the left in the above group is the AK-130 i think. This gun uses a different case size, namely 130x757R but i don't know the rim diameter. The KS-30 AA, however used a 130x861R case...different again. My list shows Russian or Soviet 130mm cases of the following lengths : 757mm , 846mm , 861mm and 994mm.
The naval gun turret and magazine depicted in the second photo from the left in the above group is the AK-130 i think. This gun uses a different case size, namely 130x757R but i don't know the rim diameter. The KS-30 AA, however used a 130x861R case...different again. My list shows Russian or Soviet 130mm cases of the following lengths : 757mm , 846mm , 861mm and 994mm.