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Federal Government looking for possibly stole ord items

W

weberoed

Well-Known Member
Ordnance approved
First I am not a collector, gave up collecting years ago after having a run in with the BATF, all turned out OK it was just a collector from maryland who wanted my stuff and thought this was a punishment for not selling or trading with him anymore.

Early this morning (while I am laying on my back trying to get over my 4th epidural shot) 2 government agents came to my door. They were wanting information on a collector in the VA area, who they had just raided. I do not know who or all the facts, but it appeard they found some live ord and a load of inert stuff that had EODS Inert labels and USMC inert lables. Some of the numbers on these labels could be tracked back to the school and MArine org site. Also in the stuff they picked up was a load of books that I had traded to a collector in MAryland many years ago, plus some inert items that I had inerted and had my name and date of inert etched in them. These dated back to the mid 1980's. Since none of the books were classifed just good copies of old US ordnance manuals and a few overseas ones - that was OK. As for them inerted items, as best I could recall they came off a demo range and I had inerted them rather then dispose of them, again nothing real special and they dropped the subject. But then they asked me about a collector we all know from Maryland - where did he get his overseas ord items, where did he get US items, etc. Evidently they had photos of some of his items that still had labels abd that obviously had then former EODS/USMC labels removed, but the glue indication of the size of the labels were still there. Since the items the guy in VA had came from Maryland they thought I could provide them with more info. As that was more then 35 years ago I could not provide anymore info. They further asked me about other collectors - told them if they had any questions they should go to the various collectors websites, I did not offer any specifc site for them to look at. Because of my military record and work I have done for the govt - my explanations were acceptable, just that if I heard anything about Maryland to let them know. Further it appeared they had just come from the Cart show in St Louis, showed, me a few photos and asked if I had ever seen them before - no I hadn't, but I couokld show them the same items in my digital library. Subject dropped

Now I can honestly say that for the most part I don't know anyone out there that currently trades with him (Maryland), but if by chance you have in past I HIGHLY recommend if there are any inert stickers or remains of any stickers left on your items to remove them completly and you might consider logging when and where you got your trade (just to show you didn't steal anything form the US Govt)

One last point the Govt guys asked me if I knew anything about a farm in the Amish Ohio area where Maryland might be storing ordnance items, whether they are inert or not. Told them that agin I had only heard rumors and that was 35 plus years ago.

This not the first time I have been asked about this individual, just glad I don't have any of his stuff still laying around and old age is playing with my mind.

This will be my only public comment, a quick check with my lawyer after they left was "keep your mouth shut, don't offer any info that you can't back up, don't point fingers", and a couple other nice bits of advise.

You guys work hard to keep your collections in great shape and items that may no longer exist any palce else in the world.
 
Unfortunately similar stories are a part of daily life all over the world nowadays. Over here police authorities have picked up totally inert items from collectors - despite of that the Army has legally sold them to collectors before. Court has decided that the items should be returned to the Army "As they are military kind of objects" - not illegal, no punishments.
So, the Army must again get rid of these once rejected and sold items but loss is collectors who once legally have purchased them ( unfortunately very few people have saved receipts of their purchases from Army surplus shops 20+ years ago ), which receipts however seem to have no value in court when the issue comes.
 
Mike,

It's no surprise that the guy in question came back onto the government's radar again. We have actually discussed him on BOCN in the past. He has been investigated over and over by the government, but they never manage to jail him. There are dozens of stories about him that have been told over the years, about how he was buying stolen EOD training aids, and even taking orders for items that were being stored at Picatinney Arsenal, and then having them stolen so he could sell them to collectors. The common thread in all of it, is greed. He used to run a scam with a friend. The friend would visit collectors to obtain ordnance that the seller would later sell on a video/internet auction. The friend would take the ordnance, promising that the buyer would send a check. When the check never arrives and the buyer is contacted, he claims that his partner took the ordnance and ripped him off, so he doesn't pay. This scam was pulled on a number of collectors. Get rare collectable ordnance for free by ripping collectors off, then sell it at elevated prices to other well-to-do private collectors.

A number of years ago, this guy was selling a large collection of chemical/biological experimental small arms ammo, individually on auction, after having sent video tapes out that showed the items. The FBI was on his doorstep ready to put a halt to the auction, but let it go through due to lack of evidence.
 
I use to have a copy of the bio/chem vid but somewhere along the line it got lost. I know Jack McGoerge tried to buy up part of the items, plus he was invovled with the govt in trying to get it shut down. Turned out they couldn't prove theft. But now those items would more then likely be listed a non sellable, since 911 most all the open sources for bio items has gone dark. All the web sites are no longer acceptible.

I know more about this guy then I should, mistakes made, but that was along long time ago and if I could repeat history there would be a lot of things done differently
 
While not addressing the situation or the individual, I would like to address the "problem". Oh and unfortunately, this really only applies to the US which is convenient since this is where the original post takes place. This is basically the same stuff I tell Bomb Squads when the subject comes up and it's the same thing that I followed when I was in the service.

There is a belief that has been perpetuated from some agencies that says "All military ordnance is the property of the US Gov't". Since I've seen it written in an official bulletin I kind of have to believe that they believe that too. I've also heard that said in my presence by some State and Local agencies so I'm going to say that it's a fairly common belief.

So lets examine some actual doctrine before I start spouting off:

AR 75-14 INTERSERVICE RESPONSIBILITIES FOR EXPLOSIVE ORDNANCE DISPOSAL

The EOD mission is to provide the capability to neutralize hazards from EOD incidents which, because of unusual circumstances, present a threat to operations, installations, personnel, or materiel.
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EOD Support to Civil Authorities. Rendering safe and disposing of IEDS, nonmilitary commercial explosives, or similar dangerous articles reported or discovered in areas outside DOD installations are primarily responsibilities of civil authorities, and not normally the responsibility of Service EOD personnel. EOD assistance, in the form of EOD actions and/or advice, may be provided upon request from federal agencies or civil authorities at any level, when a determination has been made by the Service concerned that such assistance is required or desirable in the interest of public safety.
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c. Individual Service Operational Responsibilities.
(1) U.S. Army
(b) Provide EOD services on the land mass areas, except for those specifically assigned as a responsibility of the Navy, Marine Corps, or Air Force as established in subparagraphs (2), (3), and (4) below.

U.S. Marine Corps. Provide EOD services on Marine Corps installations, or in assigned operational areas, or for EO in the physical possession of the Marine Corps.

(3) U.S. Navy.
(a) Provide EOD services on Navy installations, or in assigned operational areas, or for EO in the physical possession of the Navy.
( b ) Provide EOD services within oceans and contiguous waters, up to the high water mark of sea coasts, inlets, bays, harbors, and rivers.
(c) Provide EOD services in any rivers, canals, or enclosed bodies of water.
(d) Provide EOD services for rendering safe and disposal of EO designed to be used underwater, except when such EO is in the physical possession of another Service.

(4) U.S. Air Force. Provide EOD services on Air Force installations, at dispersal bases (which include non–DoD installations from which Air National Guard and Air Reserve Forces operate), or in assigned operational areas, or EO in the physical possession of the Air Force.
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Now that we understand what everyone is supposed to do let's move on. Military EOD comes off base to support local authorities. The Military CAN NOT sieze an item or take it from someone as that would be a violation of the Posse Comitatus Act of 1878. For an item to be taken from somewhere or someone it has to be a civilian law enforcement authority and they must do it in one of two ways:

1. Abandomnent - It is given to them by the presumed owner and documented by the receiving agency as abandoned property.
2. Seizure - It is confiscated as evidence of a crime.

In either case, documentation is provided to the property owner stating that it was taken and why (1 or 2). Without this, someones rights have most likely been violated. If you think about it, it's the same as someone coming to your house and taking the stereo out of your car. It's property and it's yours until they prove it otherwise.

For the Gov't to lay a claim to property they must prove it is theirs. I've yet to see a way to lay claim to a WWI German Hand Grenade. There is a very recent case in relation to a 3,200 yr old funeral mask where the US District judge in St. Louis MO said "The Government cannot simply rest on it's laurels and believe that it can initiate a civil forfeiture proceeding on the basis of one bold assertion that because something went missing from one party in 1973 and turned up with another party in 1998, it was therefore stolen and/or imported or exported illegally"

Here's what I recommend any collector do:

**This should go without saying, IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING THAT ISN"T INERT, YOU ARE ON YOUR OWN. Also, know your state law, in some places something as simple as a live smoke grenade fuze is considered a destructive device.**


1. Document your collection and know EVERYTHING that you have. Also, you should probably have general estimates for the value of each item for insurance purposes.
2. Photograph your collection and if possible take photos of the item disassembled to show that it contains no explosives.
3. If you are confronted by lawful authorities that question your collection speak respectfully to them and show them your documentation.
4. If claims are made that your items are dangerous (and you have the documentation to show otherwise) you can either offer them the opportunity to examine/x-ray them or tell them to pound sand. If you prefer the latter be prepared for them to take your items because they most likely will.
5. If they take them, ensure that you either abandon them to them or they seize them and get documentation from them stating every item that was taken.
6. You can tell them that they can not destroy anything until you have had a chance to rebut any findings that they have. This doesn't mean that they will but it does put them on notice that you aren't taking this lightly and you will be following up. This would also be a good time to talk to your lawyer.
7. Be prepared to fight to get your property back and claim monetary compensation for any items that are destroyed. Of course, unless you have photographs that show the items disassembled or have other documentation like x-rays it may come down to a your word against theirs. Your case will be helped if they don't x-ray the item but that doesn't mean it's a given in court.

The bottom line here is it's your collection and your responsibility. If you are within your rights and the law then you should have no issues but know that you may have to discuss the whole situation with someone who was called to your house because the contractor your wife hired to clean the carpet saw "Bombs and grenades and shit" in your house and showed the cops the cell phone pics they took while they were there.

Oh and I'm not a lawyer and this is not a legal opinion. It's my opinion, solely mine and does not represent the opinion of any other person, agency or entity. So take that for what it's worth.
 
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Everyone keeps asking me if I know the names, honestly I do not know who it is in VA and since I am not a big collector I don't follow names, as for Maryland I know most everyone knows who the govt was asking about, and if they truely know that person will understand why I don't release the name - becasue of his past actions - I do not need a liable case filed on me from him. And I would advise anyone who does know the name to keep this in mind too. At least until the govt can finally make a case - never have figured out why they haven't in past.
 
Has any one PM'd Spotter or Bolo regarding this person, it is possible he is a member here and I would certainly object if he was. If he is I would want him removed , I won't rejoin the IAA because he is a member there.
 
Gordon,

I agree 100% with you, but without some serious internet tracking it would be next to impossible to find out, because he could and is most likely registered under a false name.
 
Gspragge said:
Has any one PM'd Spotter or Bolo regarding this person, it is possible he is a member here and I would certainly object if he was. If he is I would want him removed , I won't rejoin the IAA because he is a member there.
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Hello folks,,i have just done a search for the person you are talking about and for an email address i was given that this person is using and i cannot find any matches here on BOCN..This does not mean they are not registered they could be using any name etc ,but i have done what i could with the info i had..
regards
Allan
 
As some one who is fairly new to this hobby I would like to get some back story on who this person is...without putting out any names etc that could get the forum in hot water.
 
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