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F.a. 30-06

smle2009

smle2009

Well-Known Member
Morning to all,
just been adding a few more rounds to my seemingly never ending task of filling a 250rnd 30BMG belt when I noticed this FA 37 round with a blackened head/base,it is a normal brass case,the bullet will have no bearing on the blackened base as it is just a fired case with a new bullet fitted.
It is not tarnish as the primer is still bright and clean so would have been blackened before it was originaly loaded.
Any ideas chaps?

Cheers TonyP2280006.JPG
 
Blackened case used to be the US code for tracer rounds, but I think 1937 is a bit late for that code. However, will check my copy of HWS shortly and let you know.

Regards
TonyE
 
TonyE said:
Blackened case used to be the US code for tracer rounds, but I think 1937 is a bit late for that code. However, will check my copy of HWS shortly and let you know.

Regards
TonyE
Click to expand...

Hi TonyE,
yes the M1917& M1924 tracer did have(sometimes) a blackened case,but this practice stopped in 1930 and was replaced with a red bullet tip.
The case I have has only the head blackened,not the whole case and does not even extend to the rim/groove

Cheers
Tony
 
As TonyE says the blackened case indicated tracer but only up until 1929. From 1930 onwards the cases reverted to the usual brass finish and a red bullet tip was adopted to indicate tracer. This doesn't help to id your cartridge Tony but it does at least clarify the tracer marking issue. The nickel primer shouts 'reload' to me but why the case is black I have no idea....
Jim
 
Hi Jim,
I think our posts must have 'crossed':bigsmile:
I do know about the early blackened case for tracer,which is why I was trying to find out about the blackend head.
There is a refrence in Chris Punnett's intro to collecting 30-06,that during the 30's experiments we done using nickle,tin and zinc plated primers to address the corrosive primer issue but there is no mention of the case head being blackened

Cheers
Tony
 
Hi Tony,
Hmmmm, interesting.... My copy of HWS is in storage at the moment so I can't get to it but I certainly don't recall ever seeing any reference in it to a blackened head as any form of identification. I've got examples of non-corrosive primers dated 1949 & 1950 but nothing as early as yours I'm afraid.
My money's on a handload which has been colour-coded to indicate a particular load.
Jim
 
Hi Jim,
excuse me for being a bit slow on this but what is this book HWS? I do love refrence books and would rather spend my time with my nose in a book than trolling the net! and I do have very few SAA refrence books.
From the above info from C.P. ref primer experiments; first started through the 20's then again in the 30's and also after WWII.
In the late 40's the U.S. used zinc plating to protect primer cups on the P4 primer.
It is a shame, that because this round was from a bunch of re bulleted(for show) rounds I grabbed at a show just to fill my 30 cal belt, we will probably never know the full story of this round and you may well be correct with your hunch about it just being a reload

All the best
Tony
 
I wondered if the head has not been deliberately blacked but simply come into contact with something that has discoloured the brass, but the primer being nickel has remained unaffected. The fact that it is only the base, not even the rim, that is black seems odd for a deliberate colour code.

"HWS" is "History of Modern United States Military Smallarms Ammunition" by Hackley, Woodin and Scranton, published about 25 years ago in two volumes, Vol I 1880-1939 and Vol II 1940-1945.

Vol.III which will go up to I think 1975 has been awaited for many years, but talking to Bill Woodin and Gene Scranton just before Christmas I was assured that it would be available "soon", certainly in the next twenty years!

It is one of the "must haves" for cartridge colectors whether you collect US military ammo or not. You also need Chris Punnet's book on .30-06 and of course Labbett's two works on British ammo.

Jim - Did you buy that labbett on saturday?

Regards
TonyE
 
Sorry Tony, I was referring to a book which is worth it's weight in gold to anybody who has an interest in US military ammunition. It's two books actually and volume 3 should be available later this year. The letters HWS are the initials of the three men who have put it all together; Frank Hackley, William (Bill) Woodin and Eugene Scranton. The book is entitled 'The History of Modern US Military Small Arms Ammunition'.
Volume 1 covers the period 1880 to 1939.
Volume 2 covers through from 1940 to 1945.
Volume 3 is due for publication 'soon' and will continue the story.
These books are seriously good, they are still available and I'd get yourself a copy of each while you still can. I found both my copies on Amazon.
Jim
 
Hi TonyE,

Another crossed thread! I was about to compile a lengthy email to youself to thank you for the head's-up on Labbett's book which I did indeed buy.
I wished to thank you regarding another matter as well but will write to you personally.

Jim
 
Many thanks to you both for your thoughts on this round and the heads up on the books,I shall be paying a visit to the book shop in Devises when next there,they have been very good at finding out of print and second hand books in the past for me.

Cheers
Tony
 
Tony-Tony-Jim

My 2 cent guess is a handload. The primer is not original and the rim dent on the top would indicate it was blackened after the first firing. Many handloaders mark their cases in order to keep track of different loads or the number of times the case has been reloaded. Some will use a notch cut in the rim, a magic-marker stripe across the base, or a blackened (or other color) base. Some will color the primer with a magic-marker. When the case is de-primed, the mark is no longer there and the case can be reloaded with a different load than before.

HW&S are working hard to get Vol III printed before April. They are making no promises. It will extend to 1977, the year that Frankford Arsenal was closed, but will also cover some cartridges that were still in development at that time, taking them to completion. They are still adding new material and Frank Hackley has hinted that they may publish it in two parts. Everyone is eagerly waiting.

Ray
 
Hello SMLE2009,

I just checked (3) Random .30 FA Factory Rounds from Years 34, 38 & 39 and all have brass colered primers as shown in the attached photo.

I believe that the nickel primer and apparent removal of the factory primer crimp on your casing indicates that it was reloaded at one time. As mentioned earlier, blackening or coloring the bases of reloaded cases was / is a common practice preformed by some individuals and reloading companies in the US.

Stay safe,

Frank
 

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Re: HWS Vol I: Do note that the first edition came out in 1967 and the second revised edition in 1998. There exists an addendum to the first vol. I, bringing it up to second edition. It is the 1998 revised edition of Vol. 1 that is on Amazon (US).
I bought Vol. II (published 1978) on a british militaria webshop(!) together with the two green Labbett volumes :tinysmile_twink_t2:
Soren
 
Thanks to all for all the help,Rays remark about the rim dent ties it up really as the 37 NATIONAL MATCH next to it has an identical rim dent!
Will get that belt filled up one day!:slug:

Cheers
Tony
 
Tony, It doesn't look like the primer crimp has been disturbed, so I'm pretty sure that the round is not a re-load. The NM case right next to it has the what looks to be the same primer. If I remember right from HWS #1, the NM had primer cups that were made of what was called Monel Metal. The M1 Ball round had the regular brass primer cups, of which I have examples of in both the 20 Round Box and the bandoleers. regular brass primers. Would it be possible that the blackened base was to identify it as an experimental monel metal primed round? Cheers, Bruce.
 
Bruce

I believe the Match case next to it is a fired reload also. The similar cratering on the primers would lead me to think that they were fired in the same rifle.

The NM cartridges from 1935 to 1940 had crimped brass primers. They also had cannelured bullets so there was very little difference between Match and M1 Ball cartridges for those years, except for the headstamp and slightly better accuracy specifications.

Ray
 
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Ray, I thanks you for setting me straight. I just looked at the primer crimps under the high magnification mode and they didn't look to be either swaged or trimmed. Couldn't remember what HWS said since I don't have my book available, but I had remembered a mention of Monel Metal primers for .30 Cal. Cheers, Bruce.
 
The only HWS I mention of monel primers is a two sentence paragraph that says that, in April 1924, FA loaded some cartridges with 1924 NM bullets. No indication of what they were for.

Ray
 
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