Definition of "Small Arms Ammunition"

[exat808]

Whilst recently researching for a paper a colleague and I came across a stumbling block with the question "what defines small arms ammunition" particularly in respect of calibre?
Does anyone have any thoughts on the matter?

 

[raymeketa]

I can't speak to other countries, but in the U.S.A., Small Arms Ammunition is ammunition used in a weapon whose bore size is 0.60 inch or less (15mm), and shotguns (TM9-1900).

That was the definition through WW II. It's become blurred today, what with the various 20mm, 25mm, and 30mm cartridges. Many collectors will say small arms ammunition is anything that is not normally loaded with an explosive charge and a fuze (20mm and bigger).

Take your pick.

 

[TonyE]

I will have to look up the reference, but in the UK SAA was always defined as 20mm and below.

Regards
TonyE

 

[exat808]

I will have to look up the reference, but in the UK SAA was always defined as 20mm and below.

Regards
TonyE

I was looking forward to a response from you Tony. We have nothing in UK Legislation that defines SAA. I can only only find one international definition and that is within the UN Regulations on the Transportation of Dangerous Goods which defines SAA as any calibre below 19.1mm.

 

[Falcon]

Just thinking aloud here, why 19.1mm? Seems an odd number to pick for the cutoff point.

 

[exat808]

Copy from UN Model Regulations on the Transportation of Dangerous Goods Appendix B -

Ammunition consisting of a cartridge case fitted with a centre or rim fire primer and containing both
a propelling charge and a solid projectile. They are designed to be fired in weapons of calibre not larger
than 19.1 mm. Shot-gun cartridges of any calibre are included in this description.

 

[Slick]

And all this time I assumed it was Cal. 50 and below.

 

[exat808]

And all this time I assumed it was Cal. 50 and below.

I guess its because there is so much mythology and folklore about what constitutes SAA and very little fact. As you say Slick, "all this time I assumed".... yet there might never have been a definitive legal answer. Thank you for your response.

 

[exat808]

I can't speak to other countries, but in the U.S.A., Small Arms Ammunition is ammunition used in a weapon whose bore size is 0.60 inch or less (15mm), and shotguns (TM9-1900).

That was the definition through WW II. It's become blurred today, what with the various 20mm, 25mm, and 30mm cartridges. Many collectors will say small arms ammunition is anything that is not normally loaded with an explosive charge and a fuze (20mm and bigger).

Take your pick.

Thank you for the reply. Is the US definition captured in Federal Law or is it found elsewhere such as in BATF regulations?

 

[Slick]

After extensive research (I googled SAA definiton), I noted SAAMI's site had the following:

AMMUNITION, SMALL ARMS A military term for ammunition for firearms with bores not larger than one inch.

So there's that. BUT, they only list up .500 on assorted data sheets.

And here's what the BATFE has to say about it:

Subp. 16. Small arms ammunition.

[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial]"Small arms ammunition" means a shotgun, rifle, pistol, or revolver cartridge; or cartridge for propellant-actuated power devices and industrial guns. This term does not include military-type ammu-nition containing explosive bursting charges and spotting or pyrotechnic projectiles. [/FONT][/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Arial][FONT=Arial,Arial][/FONT][/FONT]

 

[raymeketa]

That 1 inch number that SAAMI uses is what the U.S. Military used around WW I. During the 20s and 30s it was described as Cal .50 and below although some references still showed it as under 1 inch. TM 9-1900 has a very clear definition - 0.600" and below. Probably in deference to the Cal .60 AT cartridges firing a conventional AP bullet. Some later TMs on Small Arms Ammunition include everything up to 30mm although there is no stated definition as contained in TM 9-1900.

I wouldn't put much stock in a BATF&E definition since there are always a lot of politics involved in what they do. Remember when they all but banned the .500 A&E cartridge when its bullet measured .510" but approved it at .500" based on a technicality involving the type of rifleing?

All in all, a good question to which there probably is not one answer.

 

[Slick]

Ray

Another perplexing issue, for me, is: is it Cal .50, cal. .50, or Cal. 50. I know you know. Your definitive answer will save me having to go out and look at my ammo cans.

Rick

 

[TimG]

Into what category do 38mm baton rounds and 40mm grenades fall?

Tim

p.s. and what about punt guns?

 

[raymeketa]

Rick

Most labels say CALIBER .50. Although some say Caliber .50 and some say Cal. .50 or CAL. .50. One box of des Moines Tracers says CALIBER 50 while a box of Frankford Arsenal Tracers says .50 CALIBER.
I think most of the steel ammunition boxes say CAL .50 or CAL. .50

TMs usually say Cartridge Caliber .50

Got it?? You didn't really expect anything military to make sense, did you?

Ray

 

[Slick]

Exactly what I thought. Muchos gracias por fer info. Amigo.

 

[raymeketa]

Not to belabor this, but FWIW, the original cartridge drawing dated May 6, 1919 is titled, "Cal. .50 Ball Cartridge, Model of 1919".

 

[kahu1]

Apart from the previously mentioned UK definition of up to 20mm, my (personal) interpretation of SAA is 'as fired by small arms',ie soldier portable,rifles,handguns,etc.
Not very defined though!
Also brings up the question of what is cannon ammunition.Does it need a driving band,explosive charge,etc? The Oerlikon 20mm AA cannon(?)is described on the gun, as a machine gun!

cheers,
Bob

 

[exat808]

Into what category do 38mm baton rounds and 40mm grenades fall?

Tim

p.s. and what about punt guns?

We certainly dont treat 38 and 40 mm rounds as SAA within UK or GB legislation.

Punt guns - if it is a preloaded round in a smoothbore weapon it may be captured as shotgun ammunition. If the round is assembled from propellant, sht, wadding and primer at the place of firing the amunition wil be unclassified.

Thank you to all the contributors so far.

 

[TonyE]

I can't find the reference that I know I have somewhere, but at least this is evidence that 20mm was still considered "Small Arms" in 1943. I also have a 1995 listing of small arms ammunition that includes 20mm but nothing larger.

Also, a bit out of date, but the 1 inch Aiming Rifle nomenclature was "Cartridge, Aiming Rifle....", not "Cartridge, Small Arm, Aiming Rifle...."

Regards
TonyE

 

[exat808]

I can't find the reference that I know I have somewhere, but at least this is evidence that 20mm was still considered "Small Arms" in 1943. I also have a 1995 listing of small arms ammunition that includes 20mm but nothing larger.

Also, a bit out of date, but the 1 inch Aiming Rifle nomenclature was "Cartridge, Aiming Rifle....", not "Cartridge, Small Arm, Aiming Rifle...."

Regards
TonyE

Thank you. Current British Military documents define SAA as "all types of ammunition below 20mm used with small arms".
I am wondering as to when we adopted this definition? The earliest British military reference that I can find is dated May 2001. What is the 1995 listing that you refer to Tony?