Closure straps and tab for Vickers MG No. 10 belt box

[Costonlight]

Hi all,

I am replacing the leather closure and locking straps on a No. 8 Mk. I Vickers belt box and a No. 10 off-white one for the Bren Gun Carrier. I am okay with the No. 8 Mk. I as I already have one with good complete straps I can copy, and have the original tapered metal tab from the old locking strap I can re-use, but am in a little difficulty with the No. 10 box. The inner closure strap that holds the metal loop that goes over the box loop is complete, but was so old, dry and cracked that it broke. I have the loop and the correct rivet types in copper and bifurcated steel to do the job, along with a proper copper rivet setter.

However another narrower strap was attached to the inner loop strap with a steel bifurcated rivet just below the copper rivets holding the inner strap to the sloped section of lid. It is this strap with its locking tab that I need detailed photos and measurements of. Both my box and the only one I can find a photo of on line showing the closure and locking strap area are missing this outer locking strap. Both have a steel riveted portion of about 3/8" still there but that's it.

Could some kind soul who has one of these boxes with the outer locking strap and tab still complete please take the time to take a couple of photos of these and some measurements and post them for me? My Bren Carrier box (and I) would be eternally grateful.

The box from IMA can be seen in the following link: http://www.ima-usa.com/british-wwii-vickers-mmg-white-steel-ammunition-can.html

Many thanks in anticipation,

Pete.

 

[hangarman]

Hi Costonlight,
Have taken some pictures of my strap, its not as supple as it was but it is complete so here goes.

Small strap 3/8" wide large strap 5/8" wide
Good luck with your restoration.
Cheers
Gary

 

[Costonlight]

Hi Gary.

Very much appreciate your efforts, thank you. Can you please describe and measure the metal tab on the end of the locking (outer) strap for me in a little more detail as I will have to make one. Is it a piece that surrounds the entire strap like the tapered-sided soldered one on a No. 8 Mk. I box locking strap? This is held on the tapered strap end by 6 punch dents, but the parallel-sided one on your No. 10 box appears riveted on.

Again, many thanks,

Pete.

 

[hangarman]

Hi Pete,
The metal tab is made from mild steel, @ 18 to 20 swg . It is 15/32" wide with a developed length of 2 1/8". When folded the open end is slightly radiussed, the folded end has the corners cut off. The CSK 120 degree copper rivets I estimate at 3/32 diameter, the tab being dimpled both sides to produce a flush surface on both sides. The hole centers are 5/16 and 11/16 from the radiussed ends.
Hope that all makes sense
Cheers
Gary

 

[Costonlight]

Thanks again Gary.

Let me see if I've got this straight - the metal tab is of thin mild sheet steel folded in section into a squarish "U" shape with open sides, radiused top ends and corners cut off the folded bottom. Width of bottom fold to match the thickness of the narrower leather strap. I will be using belt leather. (One more measurement please. Could you give me a measure across the cut-off portions on the bottom corners which I assume is about 45 degrees?) It is riveted to the leather strap in 2 places by copper countersunk rivets that are flush on both sides. I'll have to see if I can find this type of rivet, or may have to adapt an existing type I have or turn some up from scratch. I assume if they are csk both sides then the stem of one locks into the stem of its opposite. Once the tab is finished and before riveting a good black oxide finish and Robert's your father's brother.

Your straps aren't the prettiest I've seen, but they are original and complete. I would give them a good regular dose of a good quality non-darkening (if possible) leather conditioning dressing. We have a great one here called "Leather Therapy." A word of caution (and to all others who have old collectable leather pieces, holsters, bandoliers, belts, pouches, straps, etc) - the leather merchant here who handles this product is a long-established company that has a lot of knowledge about preserving older and newer leather. Their advice to me years ago on dressings for holsters and other older collectables is NEVER use any product with neatsfoot oil in it. (This also applies to harness and leather that needs strength too, as I built a full-sized Cobb & Co. stagecoach.) The reason they gave is that neatsfoot oil softens leather by breaking down the leather fibres which eventually weakens it. Other oil-based treatments may darken the leather, but soften by lubricating between the fibres, allowing them to slip past each other. In my opinion if nothing else is available it is preferable to preserve the leather properly for posterity and if it darkens, so be it. Such a product here that will do that well is "Leatha phane." Better to have the original leather in good supple dark condition rather than dry, cracked and broken leather in original colour!

The best option of course is "Leather Therapy" or something similar. This will darken leather slightly when first applied and the leather is damp, but reverts to virtually the original colour when it seeps in.

Thanks again,

Cheers,

Pete.

 

[Costonlight]

Gary,

Not quite sure of the length of the tab - it doesn't look to be 2 1/8" long! In fact I'm not quite sure what that measurement applies to?

Does the tab have a squared bottom end or pointed one with tapered leather? Would it be possible to get a side-on photo of the tab? I know I'm a pest, but tend to be a bit of a perfectionist with these things!

I also think the smaller lock strap that goes in it would initially have been the same width as the tab, but has obviously dried and shrunk. Get some dressing on it!

Cheers and thanks,

Pete.

 

[hangarman]

Hi Pete,
Thanks for the info on leather preservation. Have you come across "Pecard" at all , it was recommended to me a few years ago to preserve leather but there may be something better on the market now.
The beauty of copper rivets is that you can reform the heads on them very easily. If you get a block of steel and drill through it with a drill to suit the diameter of the rivet and then countersink the hole with a drill bit or ideally a CSK bit in the shape of the new head, you can literally re-form the head with a hammer. If you have the facilities to harden the steel block then you can file the head of the reformed rivet to the depth required.
Will measure the tab again tomorrow.
Cheers
Gary

 

[Costonlight]

Gary,

Have not seen "Pecard" here, but speaking to a show harness maker/saddler today about rivets and leather preservation, and he reckoned that "Leather Therapy" is about the best leather preservative the world has to offer! It's made in New Jersey so you should be able to get it in the UK. Beware - it's good, but it ain't cheap! He said he used "Leatha phane" (Aussie-made) on all his products because it's almost as good but a lot cheaper.

When I made my stagecoach I used the same technique to form the heads of bolts to bolt the steel tyres on to the wooden wheel rims. Made a correct countersunk shape with a snug hole for the new bolt shank through it in a piece of hard steel and put the bolt rod in a vice with the steel former slipped over it. Adjusted the depth of the bolt, hit it with the oxy until it was red hot then used a 16 oz ball-peen to hammer it into the countersunk former shape, then filed the top flush. Tyres never came loose!

Pete.

 

[hangarman]

Hi Pete,
Sounds like I am trying to preach to the converted with lessons on rivet forming!!
The 2 1/8" refers to the developed (before folding) length of the tab, when folded it is just over 1"" long and 1/8" thick, with the leather in between.
Here is a side view of the tab.

The corners are cut off at 45 degrees and are just over 1/16" wide
Feel free to ask questions. I always say its just as easy to make it wrong as it is to make it right so you might just as well make it right!
Will look out for some Leatha phane
Cheers
Gary

 

[Costonlight]

Thanks, Gary.

Good philosophy. I was always taught that if you are going to do something, do it properly.

I see the tab sides are open and the end fold is not squared but rounded. Easy to make. That should be all I need. Will post a picture or two of the eventual end result.

Your help is much appreciated. Ask for Leathaphane at any good harness/saddlery shop. It's called "Joseph Lyddy Leathaphane leather oil" made by Waproo Pty. Ltd., 315 Canterbury Road, Canterbury, Vic. 3126, Australia. The Josephy Lyddy range can be seen at http://www.josephlyddy.com.au/

If you can't find it in the UK get in touch via my e-mail <peter@meyer.id.au> and I can send you a bottle if you want to try it. I use it on belts, boots, all sorts of working leather. For the leather of your straps it would be perfect because it has darkened anyway, and the straps must be preserved. Once they are well oiled and the surface is dry, the oil can be kept in and stopped from drying out by external waxing. Funnily enough, Waproo also make a suitable wax as they conveniently mention on the bottom of the Leathaphane bottle! It's "Jay El Beeswax Leather Dressing." I reckon soft beeswax on its own would do.

Cheers,

Pete.