British service 7.62x51 exercise blanks

[smle2009]

Hi to all,
I'm trying to fill in some gaps and have a few questions about the above cartridges in my collection.
At this time I have the following:
RG 64 L10.A2 RED CRIMP
RG 65 L.10A2 CLEAR CRIMP
RG 66 L10A2 GREEN CRIMP
RG 84 L13A1 GREEN CRIMP
RG 93 L13A2 GREEN CRIMP (PURPLE ANNULUS!)
L13A2 02 RG BLACK CRIMP
LI3A4 04 RG BLACK CRIMP
L43A1 06 RG BLACK CRIMP

And contracted:

FN 71 (+) RED CRIMP
HP 92 L31A1 GREEN CRIMP

I also know there was a CBC blank used around about 2008,so if any one knows the L number for this one,or better still has a unfired example for sale?

Now for the dumb questions!
Why has the 64 and 65 L10A1 got a . in different places in the L number?
Why the different coloured crimps? I do know that it doesn't mean some were grenade blanks or change of L number.
Did the FN have a L number on paperwork/boxes?
Why the change of orientation of the headstamp during the L13A2 production
And lastly looking for the L numbers to fill in any gaps.

All the best
Tony

 

[TonyE]

The first British blanks were bought in from FN from the late 1950s onwards and were sealed as the L10A1.

British experimental production took place at both Kynoch and Radway Green in 1960 and the first British production blank was the L10A2 Radway design which started in 1961. I think your 1971 FN blank is a bit late for a British L10A1 but we did type allocate FN blanks again later.

My examples are:
FN 60 (+) L10A1 buy-in
K60 Experimental
K60 (+) L2A2 Experimental
Plain RG experimental
RG 61 Experimental, red tip
RG 61 L10A2 First production, red/brown tip. Also 63,64
RG 67 L10A2 Green tip
RG 71 L10A2 Green tip, purple annulus
RG 73 L10A2 Green tip, clear annulus. Also 75 and 75
RG 84 L13A1 Green tip.
RG 99 L13A2 Black tip
RG 02 L13A2 Black tip
RG 04 L13A4 Black tip
RG 05 L43A1 Black tip

Contract
MEN 76 Believed to be L14A1
HP 92 L31A1

Other type allocations are:
L13A3 RG lightened case
L14A1 MEN
L32A1 FN
L33A1 FNM
L34A1 MEN

Wheteher these were actually made and/or what they looked like I cannot say.

I can't help either on why RG changed their headstamp layout. The also did it on 5.56mm. The dots are I think just a way of identifying different production lots.

Pictures are:
RG unheadstamped
RG 61
RG 61 L10A2

Second picture
Various Kynoch experimental blanks.

Regards
TonyE

 

[smle2009]

Many thanks TonyE,
it would seem there are a lot of variants of these blanks,the 64 L10A1 with red tip I listed would fit better with your red/brown tip group although it is 'redder' than the one in your photo.
And I clean forgot about the Kynoch experimentals, I do have a K67 of these.

All the best
Tony

 

[Richard709]

Hi Tony,

A couple more to ad to the list and fill some of the gaps.

RG 76 L13A1 Green Tip
RG 88 L13A1 Green Tip
RG 92 L13A2 Green Tip Purple annulus
RG 08 L43A1 Black Tip

I have an 88 & 92 spare if you want one. Richard

 

[smle2009]

Hi Richard,
Many thanks,unfortunately it's not the dates I was trying to fill but rather the L numbers and variants of them.
I did try doing the dates thing with early ball once but it took up so much space I had to give up:tinysmile_cry_t:

All the best
Tony

 

[Dutch]

Hi Guy's

Can help with a;

RG 70 L10A2 Green Tip

Rgds.

 

[TonyE]

Thanks Richard and Dutch. Like smle, I don't collect every date for reasons of space. I now try to collect the earliest and latest dates that a particular type was made, as this is better for my reference purposes.

I am keen to know if anyone has a L13A3 headstamped cartridge. I am fairly sure this uses the same lightened case as the L31A1,A2 and A4 but with either a different powder or primer manufacturer.

Regards
TonyE

 

[AMMOTECHXT]

If it helps, I have info from the September 1992 `ADAC list', showing the then current 7.62 mm blank cartridge variants as follows:

L13A1 (carton & belted)
L13A2 (carton & belted)
FN (carton - no model number stated)
MEN (carton - no model number stated)
L14A1 (carton)
L31A1 (carton & belted)
Plastic blank carton (HKG3K)
Star (belted - no model number stated)

The info should be treated with caution because by that time it had long been recognised that the ADAC list was in need of a good overhaul, to weed out ammo that was obsolete. In fact a lot of what was in the ADAC list was more a list of what was no longer in service - in fairness a lot of items were annotated obsolete or obsolescent. For example the L10A2 blank was also still listed but was annotated `no longer in use' However such an exercise was a lower priority for the ammo managers than for example procurement and efficient management of stocks.

 

[exat808]

The most recent ESTC classification listings (july 2011) only show the L13a4 and L43a1.
There are a number of entries for the non NATO short 7.62mm cartridges and rounds - eg -
Cart Blank L31a1 (short)
Cart Blank L54a1 (short)

 

[TonyE]

Are you saying that these short rounds are the 7.62x39 warsaw Pact round? I suppose it would make sense that the British military would type approve these training rounds now that we train in Poland.

Are any other types shown?

Regards
TonyE

 

[hangarman]

Hi Tony E,
When the Royal Marines do one of their "terrorist" scenarios they use AK47's. At the windsor great horse show in 2010 i managed to pick up a couple of empty cases and a few empty cartons. No mention of an L number anywhere but I did not see the outer crate, which may have been over stencilled.
Cheers
Hangarman

 

[TonyE]

thanks, that is interesting.

What was the headstamp on the blanks they were using, and can you post a picture of the carton please?

Regards
TonyE

 

[exat808]

I will check the listings later today for the 7.62x39 entries.

 

[TonyE]

Thanks
Tony

 

[exat808]

Cartridge 7.62mm x 39mm Blank, Short. L31A1 ROUND 7.62 MM X 39 MM BALL SHORT L53A1 (ADAC 19929-01) ROUND 7.62 MM X 54 MM BALL LONG L55A1 (ADAC 19932-01) CARTRIDGE 7.62MM X 39MM BLANK SHORT L54A1 Hope these help.

 

[RogueAdventurer]

Hopefully you gents can help me solve a mystery.

The 7.62x51 blanks in the following photo were found in Libya in the tens of thousands. They are packaged, as best I can tell, in boxes of 50, and crates of 1000.



The only information I could glean from the boxes was the year of production (1978) and the port they were shipped out of (35557 = Braddock, Pennsylvania) to Tripoli. The US connection is odd, as almost all other 7.62x51 ammunition seen in Libya has been produced by FN.

Hopefully that might give someone enough information to help out!

Cheers,


RA

 

[TonyE]

Without knowing the headstamp it is impossible to be certain, but they look very much like normal FN made blanks. The crimp and red tip is very typical of FN production. Are the other rounds on the floor the same blanks, because those are FN boxes.

Regards
TonyE

 

[RogueAdventurer]

Without knowing the headstamp it is impossible to be certain, but they look very much like normal FN made blanks. The crimp and red tip is very typical of FN production. Are the other rounds on the floor the same blanks, because those are FN boxes.

Regards
TonyE

Hi Tony, I can't be certain of the other rounds on the floor, but they do look a lot like other FN packaging I have seen. I think that's the best guess, cheers.

 

[smle2009]

Cartridge 7.62mm x 39mm Blank, Short. L31A1 ROUND 7.62 MM X 39 MM BALL SHORT L53A1 (ADAC 19929-01) ROUND 7.62 MM X 54 MM BALL LONG L55A1 (ADAC 19932-01) CARTRIDGE 7.62MM X 39MM BLANK SHORT L54A1 Hope these help.

I may be able throw some light on the manufacturer of the L53A1 short ball,picked up several brown lacquered steel cased Bulgarian cases of 1976 vintage,headstamped 10 76 on a range where civilians are NOT allowed anywhere near let alone to shoot on.
I also know from the same range that the later 5.45x39mm ball is being used so there should be a L number for these too....rather a strange feeling seeing British solders using AK's and AKM's!

Tony

 

[EOD]

As most special forces I would expect the British to train their men with all sort of foreign guns. Should not be that unusual in my view.