British 12 pdr cannonball

[32 PDR]

Hello guys, I haven't posted in a while but wanted to share a new cannonball I purchased which is now my pride and joy. First off it is a British 12 pdr, marked with a Broad Arrow and spru. It was dug in the early 1930's at Fort Montgomery New York (prior to it becoming protected historical land)(found on private property at the time) at the famous siege by the British. On October 6, 1777, as part of Burgoyne reinforcements Sir Henry Clinton led a naval bombardment from the Hudson River against the fort as well as a land attack capturing both Fort Clinton and Montgomery. Unfortunitly Burgoyne's reinforcements were held up long enough at these Forts that he ended up losing the Battle of Saratoga on October 17, 1777.

What I can tell you for certain about the ball is this, it's a British 12 pdr, fired on October 6, 1777 at Fort Montgomery, by Sir Henry Clinton's naval forces at the siege of Fort Montgomery. I have the names of the ships involved and am currently trying to find out which ships involved had 12 pdr's, I am finding it difficult to get this information. The reader should note the British did not use land artillery for this siege because the terrain was too difficult, so it is definently from one of the ships....pics are posted below and if anyone thinks they can help me with the ship's and what size cannon they had, it would help me identify what ship it was from. I paid a pretty penny for it but just had to have it.

I also want to mention that I own several British cannon balls from the French Indian War, American Revolution and War of 1812, the early ones have Broad Arrows, the War of 1812 ones do not as expected...what I can tell you from owning several examples is ALL the examples that I own are from British Ships, they ALL have this spru mark, I have a few others from land artillery and they do not have have this spru mark...I am beginning to think that naval ones had this round mark...I have also read accounts of this as well, apparently to stop the ball from rolling on deck. I have other examples of this if interrested.

 

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

A nice addition to your collection. I can not see the purser's arrow.
John

 

[32 PDR]

You mean Broad Arrow, never heard of it being refered to as a purser's arrow?? It's the large triangle (arrow) on the front of the ball.....its hard to miss.

 

[32 PDR]

I have added more examples of Broad Arrow's from my collection.

 

[32 PDR]

I'm a little disappointed in the lack of interrested in this cannon ball....if nothing else the history attached to it..that is why I bought it to preserve our history. Does any Forum members here no of a Forum Site that deals with older items than WW1 and WW2...Don't get me wrong I love stuff from these periods, I had a large collection from these periods at one time myself...but got bored of it.. I have since moved on from that period and am looking for like minded people who might appreciate the items I have to share.

 

[roller63]

A nice item with an interesting story behind it, thanks for showing it.

 

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Broad Arrow;

The broad arrow is the stamp of Government and the Purser is in charge of purchases and supply issues. Hence the Purser's Arrow.
Regards,
JOhn

 

[32 PDR]

I realize what the difference between "Purser" and a "Broad Arrow" is, the Arrow has nothing to do with a Purser on a cannon ball..and there never is a Purser mark on a ball...its strictly to show ownership. Which is very clear and cast into the ball not "scratched inro it as often seen.

 

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

32 Pdr,
Hey, don't get discouraged about lack of interest. I post historical documentation all the time without any comments. Perhaps its the wrong era.
At any rate "broad arrow" is the slang term for the 'Purser's Stamp". I thought all knew that. You see it on almost all Royal Laboratory fuzes of this period.
Regards,
John

 

[super7]

Nice to see one with the broad arrow. Got several Dutch 3, 6 and 12 pdr
cannonballs in the collection but none of them have any markings.

Also need to restore/make an undercarriage for a 6 pdr cast iron gun which
is probably also of Dutch origin.

Regards, Jan

 

[32 PDR]

I specialize in British, flint locks, swords, cutlasses, cannonballs etc...and the Broad Arrow has always meant ownership, then there is Board of Ordnance Inspectors marks, Store Keepers marks, Kings Proof...even copper nails and bolts for making Royal Navy ships were marked every inch on both sides with a Broad Arrow..this is where the term "pinch an inch" came from it was to show owner ship of the copper...this was to prevent the ship builders from stealing the copper and selling it on the black market. Even maps had Broad Arrows to show British Property...With all do respect I'm afraid "Purser's Stamp or Arrow" is the wrong terminology every book I have and article I have read refers to it as a Broad Arrow... I have attached the dictionary meaning below and it again says "Broad Arrow" nowhere in the article does it say "Purser Arrow" it is not slang it is the proper term defined, the Arrow was stamped into items not by the "Purser" but more than likely by the manufacturer and if not than by the Board or Tower, the cannon ball for example it was cast in by the manufacturer to show "Government Property", it has nothing to do with the notion of purchasing an item...I own muskets that were bought by the British Government then issued to militia units..it was purchased by the Government (they do not have a Broad Arrow).....you will often see a Broad Arrow with the initials "C", or "W D", with a "Crown" or "B O"....these again tell a story :
1) Canada Property (War Department)
2)War Department British Poperty
3)Crown Property
4)Board of Ordnance British Property

Use for British Government property

War Department Ordnance Survey Marker, Bermuda.


The Office of Ordnance was created by Henry VIII in 1544.[3] It dates back to the position of Master of Ordnance, one of whom, Nicholas Merbury, was present at the Battle of Agincourt.[4] The Office became the Board of Ordnance in 1597, its principal duties being to supply guns, ammunition, stores and equipment to the King's Navy. The headquarters and main arsenal of the Office were in the White Tower of the Tower of London. The broad arrow mark has been used over the years by the Office and Board to signify at first objects purchased from the monarch's money and later to indicate government property. With the demise of the Board in 1855, the War Department and today's Ministry of Defence continued to use the mark. The arrow also appears in the Ordnance Survey logo.[5]
Early use of the broad arrow can be found on some objects recovered from the Tudor ship Mary Rose, which sank in 1545. Bronze sheaves for rigging blocks, spoked wheels for gun carriages, bowls and wooden tankards were found to bear this mark.[6] The broad arrow frequently appeared on military boxes and equipment such as canteens, bayonets and rifles, as well as the British prison uniform from the 1870s, and even earlier, that of transportees in British penal colonies such as Australia.[7] The broad arrow marks were also used by Commonwealth countries on their ordnance.
The origin and earliest use of the broad arrow symbol are unknown. It could be related to the actual arrow, longbows and bowmen being a key part of the English army in the Middle ages. Broad Arrow Tower, built by Henry III of England between 1238 and 1272, in the Tower of London is said to be named after the royal property mark.[8][9] Invention of the mark is frequently attributed to Henry Sydney, 1st Earl of Romney, who served as Master-General of the Ordnance from 1693 to 1702, since the pheon appears in the arms of his family, but it is known to have been in use earlier than this. There is also an unsubstantiated claim that a document dated 1330, issued by Richard de la Pole, the King's Butler, for the purchase of wine, shows that in order to make sure that ownership could be readily established as King's property, he marked each item with an arrow from his own coat of arms.[10]
Similarly to hallmarks, it is currently a criminal offence to reproduce the broad arrow without authority. Section 4 of the Public Stores Act 1875 makes it illegal to use the "broad arrow" on any goods without permission

 

[32 PDR]

While we are on the subject of a "Purser", this is a Naval Rank..responsible for paying men on board a ship, book keeping, and buying things such as candles, blankets etc ...nothing to do with buying weapons, cannons, cannon balls and or stamping them, these items had to be authorized and issued through the Board (Naval Admiralty), perhaps he requested these items from them but they would have already been purchased, inspected and marked. The Broad Arrow which is on all infantry, artillery and Naval property was either stamped in by manufacturer, the Tower and or Board of Ordnance (Admiralty). I actually own several Royal Navy Purser requests and inventory lists.

Purser

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

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For other uses, see Purser (disambiguation).
"Pussers" redirects here. For the brand of rum, see Pusser's.
PurserGeneralOther names :Clerk of burserDepartment :Steward's DepartmentReports to :CaptainLicensed :YesDuties :Manages money handling, and orders stores & supplies.Requirements :administration and logistics training.WatchstandingWatchstander :No.A ship's purser' (also purser or pusser)'[1] is the person on a ship responsible for the handling of money on board. On modern merchant ships the purser is the officer responsible for all administration and supply; frequently the cooks and stewards answer to him/her as well.
The purser joined the warrant officer ranks of the Royal Navy in the early fourteenth century and existed as a Naval rank until 1852. The development of the warrant officer system began in 1040 when five English ports began furnishing warships to King Edward the Confessor in exchange for certain privileges, they also furnished crews whose officers were the Master, Boatswain, Carpenter and Cook. Later these officers were "warranted" by the British Admiralty. Pursers received no pay but were expected to make a profit through their business activities. In the 18th century a purser would buy his warrant for 65 and was required to post sureties totalling 2,100 with the Admiralty.[2] They maintained and sailed the ships and were the standing officers of the navy, staying with the ships in port between voyages as caretakers supervising repairs and refitting.[3]
In charge of supplies such as food and drink, clothing, bedding, candles, the purser was originally known as "the clerk of burser."[3] They would usually charge the supplier a 5% commission for making a purchase and it is recorded they charged a considerable markup when they on-sold the goods to the crew. The purser was not actually in charge of pay, but of necessity had to track it closely, since the crew had to pay for all their supplies, and it was the purser's job to deduct those expenses from their wages. The purser bought everything (except food and drink) on credit, acting almost as a private merchant. In addition to his official responsibilities, it was customary for the purser to act as a literal private merchant for luxuries such as tobacco, and to be the crew's banker.
As a result, the purser could be at risk of losing money and being thrown into debtor's prison; conversely, the crew and officers habitually suspected the purser of making an illicit profit out of his complex dealings. It was the common practice of pursers forging pay tickets to claim wages for "phantom" crew members that led to the Navy's implementation of muster inspection to confirm who actually worked on a vessel.[2] The position, though unpaid, was very sought after due to the expectation of making a reasonable profit; although there were wealthy pursers, it was due to side businesses facilitated by their ships' travels.
On modern-day passenger ships, the purser has evolved into a multi-person office that handles general administration, fees and charges, currency exchange, and any other money-related needs of the passengers and crew. The Chief Purser often holds a rank equivalent to that of the Chief Officer (and wears the same three rank rings).

 

[John D. Bartleson Jr.]

Okay

I am overwhelmed. Guess I was just using RN slang.
gee I forgot our original subject, oh yes, the cannonball. It is a nice one alright.
Respectfully,
John

 

[32 PDR]

The original subject was infact the cannonball and the Broad Arrow on the front clearely pictured, this is what gives it it's historical meaning amoung other things...I was trying to answer your question originally of "I can not see the purser's arrow" you stated that you could not see it...so I merely commented on the fact the pictures closely show a Broad Arrow and I wasn't sure if you were expecting to see something else?

 

[wichitaslumlord]

A very nice example indeed! The third piece of ordndnce to enter my collection when I started in 1977 was a US Civil War cannon ball. It was clearly marked with a "12" on the side to denote the weight and set me back $20.00 from a "nice old lady in an antique store". It was the pride of my collection until my first day of Track and field in Junior High school when I discovered a whole rack of "Civil War cannon balls" (shot puts) in the school gym.............That cooled me down on cannon ball collecting for a couple of decades. Again, a very nice item and thanks for showing it! Pat

 

[moondoggy]

Very Rare atifact. Thanks for posting. Nice example:congrats: