What's new
British Ordnance Collectors Network

This is a sample guest message. Register a free account today to become a member! Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!

brass bits

K

kaskowiski

Well-Known Member
Can anyone help with the identification of these items found on a military base in New Zealand that operated as part of a coastal defence site between 1886 - 1906. I am guessing b is a percussion primer and C some sort of fuse but no idea what from. as for A it has the Royal Laboratory mark on it but I have no idea what it is . Hope you can help

KaskowiskiIMG_0416.jpgIMG_0408.jpgIMG_0415.jpgIMG_0409.jpgIMG_0410.jpgIMG_0412.jpgIMG_0411.jpgIMG_0413.jpgIMG_0414.jpg
 
Thanks Hangarman. How do you tell the difference between an aiming shell and a one inch shell for a nordenfelt ?

Kaskowiski
 
Hi Kaskowiski,
As far as I know The Nordenfelt had a percussion primer and the Aiming round was electrically fired.
Cheers
Hangarman
 
Some of the Aiming Rifle rounds also had percussion primers!
The Nordenfelt cases were frequently unheadstamped, but when they did have a headstamp, the British-made ones usually included the date, and the Woolwich Arsenal mark of "R /|\ L" (although some of the Mk.VI rounds were made by Kynoch, and would have their mark on them). The Nordenfelt rounds were not used much by Britain after about 1902, as far as I know, (although apparently some of the private firms did produce this ammunition into the 1920s, for export contracts), whereas the 1" Aiming Rifle rounds were still in use in 1945 (or at least listed in official documents).

The Aiming Rifle cases were usually headstamped, but the only one that had the date included was the blackpowder-loaded Percussion Mk.1, which was made in between 1897 and 1909, although the only dates I have seen on this type are 1898 and 1899.

Hope this helps.

Roger.
 
Sir,
"C" is the British No. 3 percussion fuze, formerly the Armstrong B.L. PlainPercussion Fuze used in both the Armstrong lead coated shell and the woolwich system copper studded shell. It is also used beneath the No. 22 Time fuze, formerly the Armstrong E time fuze.
There were numerous modifications to this fuze.
Best Regards,
John aka Bart
 

Attachments

  • British B. L. Plain Percussion Fuse III.jpg
    British B. L. Plain Percussion Fuse III.jpg
    78 KB · Views: 29
  • Fuze Parts, Armstrong Percussion, No. 3.jpg
    Fuze Parts, Armstrong Percussion, No. 3.jpg
    47.4 KB · Views: 26
Last edited by a moderator:
John

Yes - thanks for the detailed info. My apologies for not replying sooner but I am in the field alot and can go days without access to a computor. The only difference I note between your drawings and my example is that mine does not have the safety pin extending out the side. Also on the side of the fuze where mine has II above the R/|\L mark. I assume that this suggests the pin was a later adaptation. Is it possible to date this item - I haven't been able to find a use life for the Armstrong lead shell or the copper studded shell.
Thanks so much for the info

Kindest Regards

Kaskowiski
 
Roger

Thanks for the info on aiming rounds. The site I am researching had a Thornycroft Spar Torpedo Boat stationed there between 1886 - 1901 which had a Nordenfelt mounted on the deck - whihc is why I thought the head may have related to this - however on the headland above the base was a large coastal defence battery also built in 1886 so the aiming round makes sense if not quit as exciting as a Nordenfelt round.

Thanks again for the info Roger.
 
Sir,
you are most welcome. I believe I see a date stamp.Not much on the dates except that the Armstrong lead coated shell was abandoned in the late 1860s,which was a breechloaded in leiu of the Woolwich System which I think went into the 1900s. Perhas Norman can give us more accurate dates.
The Model II b.L. Plain fuze was an earlier one but not sure when the III came out with the removable safety pin.
As a note, the copper stujdded shell was a Woolwich copy of the French means of rotation. In British terms was called the Woolwich System for its location and was made for the Armstrong gun. The Arsenal contracted the Elswick Ordnance Company (EOC) owned by Armstrong to make the shells. Those made by Armstrong have the initials EOC cast into its ogive; those made at the royal Arsenal wiill have the RL stamp on the shell's base and usually a month/year stamp into one or more of the copper studs.
Regards,
John

Note: I can't find the 'Edit' select on my first posting, but that fuze is a No. 2 not a No. 3.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Sir,
Your model is a Royal Laboratory B.L. Plain II and had not need of a safety pin.
the detonator was masked by a brass cup which kept the detonator from moving forward until impact. The brass safetty cup was held in its position by an inverted lead cup which was crushed at setback allowing the bras cup to unmask the detonator to impenge the stab firing needle at impact.
I see a 3/68 stamp on the fuze head.
Regards,
John
 

Attachments

  • British B L Plain Percussion Fuze, II.jpg
    British B L Plain Percussion Fuze, II.jpg
    53.8 KB · Views: 13
Hi John

Fascinating! I know the 9 & 12 pr Armstrong's were used here during the NZ Wars of the 1860s. Stamped on one end of the fuze is 3/68 and 244. On the other end I can just make out what looks like C 9 7 stamped on both the screw in plug and the edge of the cylinder (see photo). Do you think the 3/68 refers to date of manufacture?.

Regards
Kaskowiski

IMG_0523.jpg
 
Sir,
Yes the 3/68 is its manufacturing date the other number might be the lot number. The C39 is probably the part number if stamped on more than one place similar to the parts of a gun.
John
 
The principal difference berween the Nordenfelt and the Aiming Tube is not the primer but that the Nordenfelt has a steel armour piercing bullet with a brass gas check/half envelope whilst the Aiming Tube uses a lead bullet (except for the short lived Mark I which had a blunt brass jacketed proj). The case head you show is from an Aiming Tube Electric Mark IVM, the "M" signifying that it is fitted with a Morris patent elctric primer as opposed to the Kings Norton type. The bullet was lead without a gas check and the charge was 400 grains of black powder.

Regards
TonyE
 
Edit Button,
Someone please show me where the 'edit' button is located on my first posting in this thread?
John
 
Thanks TonyE - Thats brilliant - mystery solved. Do you know when they came into service and how long they were used for?

Regards
 
The Mark IVM was approved in April 1897 and shown in List of Changes paragraph 9056 of May 1898. The first contract was for 210,600 rounds and in the next three financial years to 31st March 1902 Morris were awarded contracts for over one million rounds. They were also made in small numbers by Birmingham Metal and Munitions Co. and Kynoch. The last government orders were in the 1903/04 financial year.

The Mark IVM and IVKN were replaced by the Mark VM which only used the Morris primer in 1903. The difference was that the Mark VM had a paper patch around the base of the bullet that was totally within the case, presumably to reduce lead fouling in the aiming rifle barrels.

The Mark IVM and IVKN were declared obsolete in 1914 with instructions that existing stock be used up. However, as with many stores, they probably remained in colonial service for some years longer.

Regards
TonyE
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top