90mm APCR Cockerill Round...

[Darren]

90mm APCR Cockerill round, i believe a service round with tungsten core penetrator. Case is Aluminium not the usual brass type.

Projectile stampings: 90MM NR489A6 MMJ-2-1 83

Projectile weight: 4.2kg

Any additional info welcome.

Darren

 

[TonyE]

90mm

I am no specialist on this big stuff, but I can tell you that is Swiss, made at the government facility at Altdorf.

Regards
TonyE

 

[Darren]

I am no specialist on this big stuff, but I can tell you that is Swiss, made at the government facility at Altdorf.

Regards
TonyE

Thanks for the info Tony, thats great.

I dont really know much about this round myself.

Is that just refering to the case or the projectile aswell? I dont know for sure but am assuming that the case is the correct one for the shell.

Darren

 

[pzgr40/42]

Hey Darren,

And I wouldn't be surprised iff the "HL" on the case stood for Hohlladung (shaped charge).
That might mean projectile and casing aren't a match or this is not an APCR (I'm not familiar with the Swiss coulours and coding though). I'm curious as to the how and why for the fins on the projo because they wouldn't make sense for a spin stabilised APCR but might make sense for a HEAT (as spin would reduce it's effeciveness).

greetz,

Menno.

 

[Darren]

Hey Darren,

And I wouldn't be surprised iff the "HL" on the case stood for Hohlladung (shaped charge).
That might mean projectile and casing aren't a match or this is not an APCR (I'm not familiar with the Swiss coulours and coding though). I'm curious as to the how and why for the fins on the projo because they wouldn't make sense for a spin stabilised APCR but might make sense for a HEAT (as spin would reduce it's effeciveness).

greetz,

Menno.

Thanks for your input Menno, thats interesting. I am only going by what i have been told by the previous owner. Hopefully someone else here can shed some more light on this one.

Darren

 

[EODGUY]

I am far from being the Cockerill expert and cannot find any information on this particular projectile in my files, but I would agree that it is probably a HEAT projectile. I don't know of an APC loaing for the Cockerill, but there may be one. I have references to HEAT and APFSDS loadings but that is all in the armor piercing types. Can anyone confirm this projectile model number by type?

 

[Darren]

I am far from being the Cockerill expert and cannot find any information on this particular projectile in my files, but I would agree that it is probably a HEAT projectile. I don't know of an APC loaing for the Cockerill, but there may be one. I have references to HEAT and APFSDS loadings but that is all in the armor piercing types. Can anyone confirm this projectile model number by type?

Thanks for your input EODGUY, hopefully someone can give a positive ID, would be nice to find out for sure what this is.

I will edit my original post and note the stampings on the projectile as they are not that clear in the photo.

Im assuming that 83 is the manufacturing date 1983?

Darren

 

[blu97]

The projectile is made by MECAR in belgium and most probely a TP round simulating a heat projo. So I don't think the belong togheter.

 

[Darren]

The projectile is made by MECAR in belgium and most probely a TP round simulating a heat projo. So I don't think the belong togheter.

Hi Blu, i agree that it looks to be made by MECAR, if TP would it not be painted blue?

Darren

 

[EODGUY]

The more I look at this round, the more I wonder. I agree that if it was a TP round it should be blue. I can't find any other MECAR (I too think this is MECAR) or PRB made 90mm Cockerill projectile painted in this manner though. All the rounds I see are a solid color with stencilled markings. There is no unpainted band around them and yours has no stencilling that I see. It appears as though it was a somewhat sloppy job of painting also because the edge of the plain band is not sharp. Could this be a HEAT-TP projectile that was repainted and whoever did it just didn't paint over the embossed area? Like I said before I cannot find any reference in my files to the NR489 series, but there was an earlier HEAT-TP that has the same profile and a solid nose/windscreen. All of the actual HEAT rounds have a nose element clearly visible from the outside. Hopefully someone has some information on the round and can clear this up for you. Can't comment for sure about the case and projectile going together either. Gee, I'm a big help aren't I!!! Bob

 

[Darren]

The more I look at this round, the more I wonder. I agree that if it was a TP round it should be blue. I can't find any other MECAR (I too think this is MECAR) or PRB made 90mm Cockerill projectile painted in this manner though. All the rounds I see are a solid color with stencilled markings. There is no unpainted band around them and yours has no stencilling that I see. It appears as though it was a somewhat sloppy job of painting also because the edge of the plain band is not sharp. Could this be a HEAT-TP projectile that was repainted and whoever did it just didn't paint over the embossed area? Like I said before I cannot find any reference in my files to the NR489 series, but there was an earlier HEAT-TP that has the same profile and a solid nose/windscreen. All of the actual HEAT rounds have a nose element clearly visible from the outside. Hopefully someone has some information on the round and can clear this up for you. Can't comment for sure about the case and projectile going together either. Gee, I'm a big help aren't I!!! Bob

You may well be correct Bob about a repaint, as you say all of the MECAR projectiles on their website seem to be stencilled and the bands are painted also. Im sure someone will come along with some reference on the NR489 at some point.

Cheers,
Darren

 

[Chris 42 RQ]

Very nice item!

Very nice Darren especially the case-not seen any of the drawn alloy cases for this weapon before.

I am a little suspicious of the projectile however as the painting looks a little "non factory" and seriously wonder whether it is in fact AP and not a practice version repaint that may have been removed from the production line before it reached the paint shop !

Still is a very nice item and whist there are a few around there are so many versions of bodies and fins that it is hard or impossible to tell what is in fact what.
How heavy is that projectile by the way??

Thanks for the look see and NICE !

 

[Darren]

Very nice Darren especially the case-not seen any of the drawn alloy cases for this weapon before.

I am a little suspicious of the projectile however as the painting looks a little "non factory" and seriously wonder whether it is in fact AP and not a practice version repaint that may have been removed from the production line before it reached the paint shop !

Still is a very nice item and whist there are a few around there are so many versions of bodies and fins that it is hard or impossible to tell what is in fact what.
How heavy is that projectile by the way??

Thanks for the look see and NICE !

Thanks Chris,
I'm a little stumped on this one.

If it was a TP then it obviously would have been blue, if it has been repainted then someone has gone to great lengths to strip the old paint as there are no traces whatsoever of the blue paint anywhere. Even in the stampings is clear of any traces of paint.

I'm not sure of the weight but I do know that it is pretty heavy, I will weigh it but I'm not sure how accurate the scales are.

The alloy case is not for this projectile but I would be interested to find out what the correct projectile for the case is. Hopefully someone knows??

Cheers,
Darren

 

[Darren]

Just weighed the projectile and it weighs 4.2kg

Cheers,
Darren

 

[mach1bang]

Hi guys,
surely a penetrator will perform wether spinning or not. Is this fired from a smoothbored barrel? and thus needs the fins to stabilize projectile. I sold this round to Darren believing it to be a service round, with a very unusual alloy case. I suppose an exray is the only sure way to determin the type of projectile.
Cheers Tim.

 

[blu97]

Here some of the swiss ammunition, you can see that the construction is different, Ithink your case is the far left.

 

[Darren]

Here some of the swiss ammunition, you can see that the construction is different, Ithink your case is the far left.

Thanks for the photo Blu, hopefully someone here can confirm for sure what my alloy case is and exactly what projectile would have been in it.

Darren

 

[alpvogt]

9cm aluminum case

The aluminum case belongs to the 9cm hollow charge round 57/83 which was used in the 9cm anti tank gun 1957. The ammunition for anti tank gun 1950 used the same case, only the propellant charge was higher. Since the introduction of the anti tank guns 1950 and 1957 the only used aluminum cases.

 

[Darren]

The aluminum case belongs to the 9cm hollow charge round 57/83 which was used in the 9cm anti tank gun 1957. The ammunition for anti tank gun 1950 used the same case, only the propellant charge was higher. Since the introduction of the anti tank guns 1950 and 1957 the only used aluminum cases.

Thanks for the info and pictures alpvogt, that is a great collection that you have there, the sectioned one is great.

My case is missing the primer, would you happen to have a spare that i may beable to buy from you?

Do the projectiles for these alluminium cases appear for sale often?

Thanks,
Darren

 

[alpvogt]

Hello Darren, Projectiles for the 90mm AT guns are more or less rare. The HEAT projectile 57/83 which would fit to your case are extremely rare, sorry for thatI have to go through my spare parts about the primer. I will let you know I have one.

Regards

Martin