20x110mm Hispano

[smle2009]

Hi To all,
picked these 20mm Hispano rounds today and have a couple or three questions about them,a bit out of my comfort zone with them so here goes:
Both came to me discribed as TP-T rounds
The left hand round is Canadian,headstamped DAC(broad arrow with in the C) 20mm 44
With the case stenciled as you can see from the photo(TP-T) and very faint M8080? the projectile looks as it has had the tip ground down at some time,maybe because of damage?
Would this type of projectile and the M8080 stencil been around in 1944 when the case was made?
The right hand round is British headstamped RG 20MM 50 and has stamped on the lower part of the case SWN.307P/50 SA.P.I.R 1Z,my thinking is that this stands for Semi Armour Piercing Incendiary R???? MkIz.
But is obviously both projectiles are training rounds that had tracer elements in them(both inert)
So do I have a case(pun intended!) of mix and match here?
and any thoughts or info on these types of projectiles would be welcome as I cannot find any refrence to them at all.
There is a earlier post by Dave SG500 showing differernt Hispano projectiles which shows one simiular(but different!)

Cheers
Tony

 

[hicky1300]

Hi Tony
Look good but I`m a bit baffled too!!
As you probably know the TP-T is for Training Projectile Tracer & you are right about the Semi API but I do not know what the R is for?
Fairly sure I have one of the cases on the left with htat stencilling but not sure of maker - I`ll have a look whilst having a beer!
The projectiles intriuge me though as one is obviously a lot longer, plus they look more like experimental/HV ones than TP or SAPI?
I have seen this shape/profile before but cannot recall where - just gone thru Rapid Fire & nothing in there but that`s more about the guns.
Probably not really helped you - but if I find out more I`ll post
Rgds

 

[harley]

looks a lot like 20mm vulcan high preasure test projectiles

 

[smle2009]

Hi H,
thanks,I'm fairly sure the left projectile has been ground down at some stage.

Cheers
Tony

PS its Training Practice by the way

 

[hicky1300]

Tony - yes - after I posted I re-read & thought `muppet`!! Only Human.
I`m with harley but going to have a forage anyway!
You going to the meet Tony?

 

[smle2009]

looks a lot like 20mm vulcan high preasure test projectiles

Hi Harley,
would these of had a tracer element?,the base of these rounds below the drive band do indeed look very Vulcan like!
Tony

 

[smle2009]

Tony - yes - after I posted I re-read & thought `muppet`!! Only Human.
I`m with harley but going to have a forage anyway!
You going to the meet Tony?

Not unless I win the lottery mate,still without transport at the mo:tinysmile_cry_t2:

 

[smle2009]

http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/47126-20mm-Hispano-projectiles.?highlight=20mm+

Just found Daves old post on Hispano projectiles,so may not be Vulcan as the base below the drive bands look the same?
And I was comparing the base of these projectiles with these

Tony

 

[Darren]

Tony, I have one of these projectiles also. There is some info here: http://www.bocn.co.uk/vbforum/threads/78197-20mm-Vulcan-High-Presure-Test-Projectile

Darren

 

[tigbrand]

Hi Tony,the R stands for representative i think. Im going to the Bocn Bash if you want a lift?Tony.

 

[smle2009]

Hi Darren,
looks like you have solved this one mate and like you I need to find an 80's dated case for it,and a SA.P.I.R projectile oh and a WW2 Canadian TP-T projo!!!!
Anyone got photo's of these? at least I will have some idea what to look for!

Cheers
Tony

 

[smle2009]

Hi Tony,the R stands for representative i think. Im going to the Bocn Bash if you want a lift?Tony.

Hi Tony,
that is very kind of you,not sure if I can get time off work(yes I work Sundays!) with such short notice and I do have a 9 month old collie that gets bored quickly and does the stupidest things to amuse himself!!!

would representative be a TP or drill?

All the best
Tony

 

[TonyE]

Tony - I know very little about 20mm, but even if they are the wrong projs for those cases, the cases have been re-loaded as the stencilling on the DAC case says "Lot 01 ASM 89" indicating 1989.

Also, "R" in British coding is explosive (look in the .303 ID book in the code list!), although I am not sure if there was a SAP/HE/I Mark Iz. "R" is not "Representative".

Finally, AFAIK, TP has always stood for "Target Practice" and not "Training Projectile".

Regards
TonyE

 

[smle2009]

Hi TonyE,
Many thanks for the info especially about the stenciling on the DAC case as it also is stenciled TP-T and from the eighties it would seem this is the correct projectile for this case,or rather the reload done in 1989:wink:.

However I am a bit confused about the R being the code for explosive on this case as the rest of letter codes do not follow the normal headstamp code ie AP=W I=B and the T=G on the other case.
It seems a bit odd,to me, that they would use a headstamp code in the middle of abbreviations normaly found on cannon rounds,HE being the norm for explosive.
Also like you I wonder why a SAP-I would be HE as well? wouldn't this defeat the object of it being AP?
I must admit I always thought TP ment Training Practice so stand corrected on that one.

Have spent many an hour reading your great book but did you know some b****r has coloured it in.....and I was looking forward to doing that:tongue:
A bit off topic,I turned up a varient of a B II C cancelled to a V blank today that is a bit different to the one in your book

All the best
Tony

 

[kahu1]

Hi ,

THe 'R' in SAPIR does stand for representative,(inert loaded ),in '50s dated projectiles these are coloured black with a blue tip and a yellow band at the ogive.Used for training firing on non explosive ranges.
The SAPI round (live) was red with a white tip.
Mixing code meanings for small arms and cannon rounds will just confuse,more so than they already are.
Will post pics from manual later.

cheers,
Bob

 

[kahu1]

 

[smle2009]

Many thanks Bob,
I thought it was bit odd to mix SAA headstamp codes with cannon round codes and a very big thankyou for the photo of one of these projectiles,now I know what to look out for.

All the best
Tony

 

[smle2009]

Just one more question,that has reared it's head from the info supplied chaps

Concerning the reloaded Canadian TP-T,from the information on the case stenciling would this have been reloaded in Canada or possibly a British reload useing an old Canadian case?

I would also like to thank all that have responded to this thread as extending cannon rounds(up to 30mm) to my collection is a fairly recent devlopment and has been quite a learning curve for me.


Many thanks
Tony

 

[TonyE]

Kahu1 and Smle - It is not I that is getting the codes confused between 20mm cannon and small arms ammunition, but I fear the converse is true. That is because in British military parlance 20mm cannon ammunition is Small Arms Ammunition. See the attached picture of the cover of the 20mm ammunition manual. Furthermore 20mm ammunition, whether Hispano or Oerlikon has the nomenclature "Cartridge Small Arms 20mm.....".

Also see the attached page from that manual detailing the codes used on packaging of 20mm Oerlikon and note the phrase "The distinguishing letters on the Oerlikon labels are in the normal small arms code...." (my italics). The manual just happens to use the Oelikon as an example but the same holds true for Hispano.

However, it does seem in practice that for Hispano ammunition the tendency on both rounds and labels was to use abbreviations rather than codes, i.e. S.A.P.Iz rather than FIZ.

Now for the round in question. Many thanks for posting that drawing, I had not come across the use of "R" within the Mark number before. I would have expected it to be "S.A.P.I.Iz (R)" or perhaps "REP". I stand corrected.

Regards
TonyE

 

[smle2009]

Hi TonyE,
never thought you were getting confused for one minute,I just thought it odd that they would use part of one code and the rest of another(mind you they still used the Z code!).
And yes F instead of W,I totaly missed the code for SAP!

All the best
Tony